Sorts of out of bounds, but can´t think of a better place..

[Racing]

Right guys.
Seasoned as far as casting my own, seasoned as far as use of PP and sliders. Bear with me here please, cause i have NO idea where other to post this!

Now. Enter my issue, or.. challenge more like it.

Sry to say the forum doesn´t carry a heading for PP using smokeless. I use duplex and sliders for my Kropatschek with reasonable success for starters. (As well as my Sharps.. and Chassepot and what not)
Be that as it may then..

I live in the country of 6,5*55 Swede and of course that caliber is like all over around here. As much as the mainstay of what i do is blackpower (love it) i DO have a past within IPSC too. As i´ve grown older tho i´m still fond of "shooting on the move" why i for instance get a big broad smile from CAS.
Now.
That being said.. i have indeed turned older, body´s screaming every time i try to move - as for the rest of you guys - and eye sight..yeah well.. you´re with me here i bet.

Enter PRS.

So i fabbed me a neat little PRS-22 gun on a budget.. and the day came for a full grown version.



To me over here where i live the choice was a no-brainer really. A Sauer 200 STR in 6,5*55 Swede.
I do know there was a group buy on here a while back for a flat based 170 grain jobbie.. but hear me out here on this one plz.

Issue at hand is that the 6,5 is a hauler. Semi mild loads will reach 2800fps and that coupled with the twist at hand spells death for cast boolits right?

Yeah well.
I´ve got an old 1886 Kropatschek too in 8*60 and that thing being the last dying scream of blackpowder hauls it´s 250 grain pills out the snout doing approx 1700fps. True, a rather far cry from any 2800 but see.. that got me thinking cause the Kropa was developed around using paper patch at first and copper foil following up.

Using ample hardness lead (typo mixed with pure for a BHN up there) to make a slider, to use a paper patch?
In my book that could be had to survive, and that a rather far cry up the ladder as far as speeds go?

The design criteria here is of course to be able to put together dirt cheap practice ammo.. Living in the land of Norma, using the most Swedish caliber there is.. brass can be had dirt cheap already where we´re at.
But what about the boolit?

This is just me blurpin here, but could we even get away with patching a BT style boolit? I might be off marker on this one and if so just blunt tell me so, but.. like a 2100-2400fps setup using PP to harness that say 170-180 grain pill hidden in there?
Gas check, sure but all said PP i bet could be tucked to protect the base from the actual flame correct? If so using repellant even?

The 6,5*55 is a rather old cartridge. We´ve used it around here since at LEAST 1894.. iow just a breath after smokeless was put on market. (Someone will correct me on that one i bet)
That being said it´s seen a sorts of revival due PRS amongst other sporting use, some claim they see better results from it than the way way way later 6,5 Creed even. Mark, in MODERN guns. Like the STR.

Work with me here guys. Please, cause.. i really don´t know where else to put this question/idea/concept.

[Racing]

Pushing on.
A boat tail that carries a dirt cheap home made 3D printed "sabot" to conform the thing into flat base.
As we´re talking paper patch, who cares if the plastic burns into the paper. Even better, more weight and drag to make sure the entire assy comes off in a hurry.

[Racing]

Oh, my bad.
Could i get a little help from a mod moving this post?

[No_1]

It has been moved.

Nice rifle!

[Harter66]

I can't speak directly to the x55 . I have started with the 6.5×50SR Arisaka/Japanese with some success. Being a slightly smaller case all of the load data for IMR 4350 and H4831 is limited by keeping the bullet in the case I suspect you'll find the same with Magnum Sporting Rifle(MSR?) Or similar powders in the x55 .

I worked a number of both bare cast and PP in the Type 38 which has a whole truck load of its own baggage . Best results were with the 266469 it leaves something to be desired but I don't feel like the 96 yr old rifle with Metford rifling is wholly at fault for the groups . Being .270 grooves and needing a .272 to fill the throat may no be really helpful though.

The SIL 264 WM in an FN 98 did great with an NOE 260-120 patched .265 . There was however no point in even thinking about trying honest rifle powders there . That ended at 16-17 gr of Unique impact was only 30" or so low at 400 yd with a 100 yd zero . With a 140 that cartridge is just getting started at 2800 fps and a 120 is hard to get that slow .

I've messed with some fast twist 30s and been able to get another 150 fps over best cast loads but only 1950 fps in 1-8.5&9" with a 12 in a 308 2500 fps was no problem.

In a narrower window I was able to push a 7mm wildcat to 2400 fps in a 1-8.5" but everything was perfect and the rifle was built with exactly that in mind the 7×57s I haven't done so well with .

[Nobade]

I use a 160 gr bullet and paper patch it for my '96 Swede. The powder is WC860 or 872, extremely slow ball powders designed for 50 BMG and 20mm cannon. I am able to duplicate the military issue ammo ballistics, so it tracks to the sights out to 800M. Without the paper, 1500 fps is about the limit before accuracy goes away. I have even had bullets break in half from the violent spin - up of that fast rifling twist before I started patching for it.

[Racing]

Hm.
It seems most stonewall using cast in the 6.5 at a rather good cry below 2000 for various reasons.
Some claim stellar results by mere use of filler in turn?

As noted the 6.5 no doubt is at its best using very slow powders. Around here that means Norma 204, MRP, URP as well as Vhita N-160 and N-165.

I appreciate that the twist rate i rather fast why some claim a softer paper patched pill might be just the trick?

[Racing]

I´ve been reading up on an old thread about the 6,5 where a couple of guys claim to have "solved the mystery", pushing cast pills at around 2400fps.
Honestly, don´t know what to make of it. Just makes my head spin.

Question i´ve still got tho is if it is an idea to make for some sorts of sabot setup? Would it be feasible at all?

[405grain]

The old thread where some guys were claiming to have remarkable accuracy while shooting 6.5x55 cast loads at jacketed velocity didn't seem to include any physical evidence to support the claim. The documented experiences of many other shooters seems to indicate that achieving exceptional accuracy with cast loads in the 6.5 Swede requires a much lower velocity; usually in the range of 1400 to 1600 fps.

I applaud your efforts to seek out better accuracy at higher velocities with the 6.5x55. Paper patching on such a small bullet is not very common, but that also means that it's something with unknown potential. Another venue for increased cast bullet velocity might be through powder coating. Only experimentation will tell. On one note though there is a definitive answer: gas checks. A gas check isn't used to protect the base of a bullet from the heat of burning powder. The combustion occurs so quickly that the heat doesn't have time to transfer to the base of the bullet. If you locate the discarded paper patch from a fired bullet, note that the base of the paper patch is not burned. The purpose of a gas check is to protect the base of the bullet from pressure. The gas check forms a better seal between the bullet and the bore of the firearm, which helps to prevent hot high pressure gas from getting passed the bullet and causing leading. It also strengthens the bullet base against deformation caused by pressure.

I believe that Remington used to make ammunition where a 22 caliber bullet was held in a 30 caliber sabot, and fired in calibers like 308, 30-06, etc. Their advertising always talked about the super high velocity it could achieve, but there was never one word or picture about the accuracy. I would venture that you would be trading accuracy for higher velocity by using a sabot with a 6.5x55, but without any experimentation my opinion is just conjecture.

[303Guy]

Racing, why would you be wanting to use a boat tail boolit? A potential problem that I see is an uneven boat tail after fifing if the boolit should cant slightly. A flat base may be better in that regard but then again, why would the boolit cant? Well, I have had boolits canting in my 303 Brits, both paper patched and jacketed. When I play around with them, I specifically look for signs of canting. Another thing I look for is boolit riveting. That damages the patch and can lead to leading. That tends to happen with longer boolits and your Swede has longer boolits so just something to be aware of and look out for. It's caused by boolit bump up as the boolit leaves the case. It can be evidenced by a little narrow paper ring left in the throat or in the case mouth itself. It happens mostly with softer alloys and faster powders. One or the other is all it takes.

This is the ring I am referring too. It is caused by the boolit bumping up at the case mouth then cutting the bulged patch off, leaving it between the case mouth and the chamber end. The sharp cut on one end of the ring is from the case mouth.



Here you can see the bumped up portion of the boolit. This is the boolit that produced the ring.


Also, long boolits can bend or buckle on firing. Just things to be aware of and try to eliminate. Obviously, I have a boolit catcher which helps. Of course, boolit bump up once fully in the bore is no issue. Unless it results in an uneven base edge which is another potential issue.

But please do keep us updated. I have patched for a 25-303 using a long boolit. I made a mold for it to suite the throat and case neck. Only it's length made it possible for me to patch. So I have a particular interest in your endeavor.

[Lead pot]

I don't have a 6.5 Swede but I have shot them several times and that is a fine caliber.

When you start pushing a cast bullet past 1600 fps things start to happen.
I was getting ready for a lever action silhouette shoot with my square bolt 1893 Marlin I loaded some rounds with a 170 gr gas check bullet and took them to the range. At 200 yards they were all over the place and keyholes so I set up a target at 100 yards and they didn't look to bad but some holes were long gated.
Well the snow bank got shot full of holes to see what was going on and I recovered the bullets and found what you see in #1 photo. The shanks were stripped and the bullet was longer than the unfired ones you see in the photo.
Dont ask me why this happened or how it could, it just happen.
Well I reduced the loads step by step from 2000 fps to 1600 fps and this did the trick with accuracy and good looking recovered bullets from the snow banks. Center photo. 1600 fps will hit center as well as 2200 fps.
I also worked with .44 caliber BT bullets to see if they shot better than the cast flat based. That rebated boat tail cup based bullet I swaged to resemble the .308 HP Lapua and like mentioned above by 303guy holding the base from damage is a problem. I solved this problem putting flour under the bullet to cushion the blow and you see that the base held its profile with out damaging it. That bullet was shot with a full black powder load.

[303Guy]

That elongated boolit phenomenon is curious. I have an example of one. I did have more and probably have photos somewhere. The one I have in my hands looks as though pressure from the power chage got in front of the base and compressed and elongated it. I wonder whether the patch got bunched up around the nose which would have had a stretching action on top of the lateral pressure? Just shooting in the dark there. Anyway, that third boolit sure looks good. Flour you say? Mmmm .... I wonder how I can make that work in a bottle neck case? A long neck yes but a 303 Brit?

I gave up on casting and patching for my 25-303. I have enough 303's to play with and the 25 was meant for range and velocity plus that small boolit is hard to work with. Yet the recovered patch boolits looked promising. Regarding the Swede, I would guess that with the throat being designed for a long boolit it would be ideal for patching. Also, my thinking is that the large case capacity would make for long duration low pressure powder burn with the right powders. Even faster powders give a low pressure and pretty good velocities with the Brit where a similar principle applies.

[Winger Ed.]

I believe that Remington used to make ammunition where a 22 caliber bullet was held in a 30 caliber sabot, and fired in calibers like 308, 30-06, etc. Their advertising always talked about the super high velocity it could achieve, but there was never one word or picture about the accuracy. .

That was the 'accelerator' line. The idea was something like making your 308/.30-06 into a .220 Swift.
They didn't talk about accuracy with them, because for most people, it was horrible.

Years ago, somebody was selling the sabots around $15-20 for a thousand and I bought a bag.
I could get down to a 3-4" group with a Rem. made unissued O3A3 with its basically new barrel.
The same rifle just shined with cast, factory, jacketed, anything but those sabots & .224 Hornadys.

In my garage job/tricked out- heavy stock, heavy Shilen barrel, etc. Rem 700---
at 100 yd, the hits on paper made a pattern you'd expect from a 12 ga at 50'.
After my 'research' I threw the rest away without even trying any in the M1A.

[popper]

Bullet elongation is probably due to friction. Mr Gibson noted it also in GC bullets. Normally lead goes to the back of the bullet. Appears in PP case, slow powder keeps pressure up on the base so lead 'flows' forward. It must go someplace!