Cutoff for the rapture.

[Gobeyond]

Does God command us to tithe and not love our money? Is it an opportunity to be a good Christian. If all Christians tithed there would be no poor, no cancer. There would be money enough for everything the world needs. Aren’t we responsible for the kingdom being delayed to come to earth. We are responsible for the earth being so wanting now.

How many of us could not be considered to be sitting on the fence somehow. Maybe the rapture is for full on Christians that don’t fall short that much. The cream of the crop. I want to go but probably don’t deserve it. If God has to ask if we love Him, then why wouldn’t he allow us to die to prove it. Who really loves him with all their heart, mind, soul and strength. Some do, so we all can.

The first century Christian had to die. Why are we better? @Alabama358.

[Handloader109]

If you Believe that Jesus Died on the Cross to Save us poor souls from eternal damnation, you will be raptured. Works are nothing.

[Alabama358]

The first century Christian had to die. Why are we better? @Alabama358.

Gobe,

No... we are not better or worse the the first Century Christians

In fact, Christ talks about Christians in the End Times being killed during the earlier part of the 7 Year Tribulation in Matthew 24.

So if we are truely in the End Times... Stand by, you might have an opportunity to die as the 1st century Saints did.

Matthew 24:9
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Also

Revelation 6: 9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Just a point of fact... verse 10 proves that even up until the 5th seal is broken, GOD has not starting pouring out his wrath.
So the folks that say the whole 7 Year Tribulation period is GOD's wrath haven't considered Revelation 6 and the Saints bellyaching to GOD about when is he going to start pouring out his wrath to avenge them.


Gobe... Not Sure if I answered your question

[farmbif]

again, as in how merciful god is. won't know till you get there. to me it makes no sense to worry about such things. if you fill your life with good works and deeds you will probably be too busy to spend time worrying about such issues.

[Gobeyond]

Yeah @alabama you answered it pretty well. I can see the first four seals were the first 3 1/2 years. Never understood that before. I’m a pre trib ear. Where is God going to draw the line on who can go. I’m not worried or obsessed. We can’t be perfect, just growing I guess. I want to be ready. When you get right to the judgment not all are going to agree with Him.

[Alabama358]

Yeah @alabama you answered it pretty well. I can see the first four seals were the first 3 1/2 years. Never understood that before. I’m a pre trib ear. Where is God going to draw the line on who can go. I’m not worried or obsessed. We can’t be perfect, just growing I guess. I want to be ready. When you get right to the judgment not all are going to agree with Him.

Gobe,
Where does GOD draw the line?

Going in the Rapture: those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Not Going in the Rapture: those that reject the Lord Jesus Christ

So how is our daily sin and lack of goodness reconciled with being fit for Justification and when the time comes Redemption/Rapture?

Well... when you are saved/born again, your spirit is sealed and can not be stained by sin... Sealed by GOD until the day of redemption. Who can break GOD's seal?

Your body and mind are not sealed and are stained daily with sin but your spirit has been sealed and is pure and clean.
We work daily to renew our minds and battle the lust of the flesh, and we fail daily but our spirit is still sealed and in tact and is perfect.

I probably did a crummy job of explaining it, but that's how I see it. Below are a few bible verses to ponder.


We are a three part being
Body - Our flesh, the carcass or vessel that carries the other two around
Soul - The mind, the part that is our emotions, happiness, sadness, generosity, greed, envy etc.
Spirit - This is the part that was made in the image of God... The least considered and the least understood part.

Hebrew 4:12 (Shows our 3 part make up)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 4:30(shows that we have been sealed until the day of redemption, not until you sin again)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 3:16 (shows once saved you have everlasting LIFE , as in forever... not until the next time you blow it but everlasting)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5: 24 (Again, everlasting Life...shall NOT come into condemnation. No stipulation just plain and simple Shall NOT)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 4:24 (Here Christ says that GOD is a spirit, so if we were made in GOD's image that would be our spirit part)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 12:2 (Here we are told to renew our mind... this I think is a daily task done by prayer and being in the Word)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (again, renew your inward man daily)
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

[Gobeyond]

Bama, now I’m being witnessed to. And when you sin upon sin serve God with your whole heart. Samuel. And don’t leave Him.

[Good Cheer]

Gobeyond, in the first post of this thread you asked the question of who even believes in the rapture so I'll take it that you are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture theory as is countenanced in most American protestant congregations.
I don't, having never found satisfactory determination for the arguments either pro and con. But, that said, I do believe that everyone should study carefully the cases made for both because obviously one or the other is most assuredly a deception from the devil himself.

To my mind the matter has come down to what scripture has to say about God's purposes for us and for this planet, of why He put us here and how He is going to wrap up the process. For believers in our savior who are to find themselves still standing firm when He arrives, the ones who Paul spoke of that are to be changed into a celestial body in the twinkling of an eye, for them we know that God is the all consuming fire that they will witness. Even for those who are not deceived into thinking that the devil is Christ, I can't help but wonder how many people will withstand the psychological pressure to accept the mark or that afterwards can withstand the physical hardship of life without the mark. How few will have the knowledge provided to us by God and the intestinal fortitude it takes to stand faithful for our savior?

To touch upon your original question, perhaps the cut off for the rapture is within us as opposed to some point in a sequence of events. I don't think my meat suit is going to last long enough to be standing for that instant change over into my celestial body but I think about it just the same. Oh well, one thing for sure and certain, this world is cranking up for the first tribulation whether I'll be around for the second one or not.

[Gobeyond]

Gobe,
Where does GOD draw the line?

Going in the Rapture: those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ

Not Going in the Rapture: those that reject the Lord Jesus Christ

So how is our daily sin and lack of goodness reconciled with being fit for Justification and when the time comes Redemption/Rapture?

Well... when you are saved/born again, your spirit is sealed and can not be stained by sin... Sealed by GOD until the day of redemption. Who can break GOD's seal?

Your body and mind are not sealed and are stained daily with sin but your spirit has been sealed and is pure and clean.
We work daily to renew our minds and battle the lust of the flesh, and we fail daily but our spirit is still sealed and in tact and is perfect.

I probably did a crummy job of explaining it, but that's how I see it. Below are a few bible verses to ponder.


We are a three part being
Body - Our flesh, the carcass or vessel that carries the other two around
Soul - The mind, the part that is our emotions, happiness, sadness, generosity, greed, envy etc.
Spirit - This is the part that was made in the image of God... The least considered and the least understood part.

Hebrew 4:12 (Shows our 3 part make up)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Ephesians 4:30(shows that we have been sealed until the day of redemption, not until you sin again)
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

John 3:16 (shows once saved you have everlasting LIFE , as in forever... not until the next time you blow it but everlasting)
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5: 24 (Again, everlasting Life...shall NOT come into condemnation. No stipulation just plain and simple Shall NOT)
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 4:24 (Here Christ says that GOD is a spirit, so if we were made in GOD's image that would be our spirit part)
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Romans 12:2 (Here we are told to renew our mind... this I think is a daily task done by prayer and being in the Word)
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

2 Corinthians 4:16 (again, renew your inward man daily)
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

@Alabama358. Seems like really good teaching and so far I agree. My spirit is my sound mind that cannot be altered. I would even go so far as to say you are rightly dividing the word of truth. That calms me a bit. Do you believe the OT scriptures sometimes still have weight and answers? Read 1samuel 12:1, 19-24. We should serve the lord. I know it doesn’t earn us salvation or the rapture, but it’s good advice to sinners as we are, and to serve the Lord with gladness.

Another piece of the puzzle. Thanks.

[Gobeyond]

Gobeyond, in the first post of this thread you asked the question of who even believes in the rapture so I'll take it that you are referring to the pre-tribulation rapture theory as is countenanced in most American protestant congregations.
I don't, having never found satisfactory determination for the arguments either pro and con. But, that said, I do believe that everyone should study carefully the cases made for both because obviously one or the other is most assuredly a deception from the devil himself.

To my mind the matter has come down to what scripture has to say about God's purposes for us and for this planet, of why He put us here and how He is going to wrap up the process. For believers in our savior who are to find themselves still standing firm when He arrives, the ones who Paul spoke of that are to be changed into a celestial body in the twinkling of an eye, for them we know that God is the all consuming fire that they will witness. Even for those who are not deceived into thinking that the devil is Christ, I can't help but wonder how many people will withstand the psychological pressure to accept the mark or that afterwards can withstand the physical hardship of life without the mark. How few will have the knowledge provided to us by God and the intestinal fortitude it takes to stand faithful for our savior?

To touch upon your original question, perhaps the cut off for the rapture is within us as opposed to some point in a sequence of events. I don't think my meat suit is going to last long enough to be standing for that instant change over into my celestial body but I think about it just the same. Oh well, one thing for sure and certain, this world is cranking up for the first tribulation whether I'll be around for the second one or not.

I don’t know your doctrine too well. But what you said didn’t speak to my spirit that well. There won’t be any stress involved in the change over. The rapture should be next to happen. The key is that Paul said comfort each other with these words but I know some just don’t see it. It’s the usual saying it nonchalantly, still hidden. It is a form of death and changing to eternal life. We are not appointed to wrath’. Why would He beat up the bride before marrying her, kinda thing. Who can stand?’

[Alabama358]

Even for those who are not deceived into thinking that the devil is Christ, I can't help but wonder how many people will withstand the psychological pressure to accept the mark or that afterwards can withstand the physical hardship of life without the mark. How few will have the knowledge provided to us by God and the intestinal fortitude it takes to stand faithful for our savior?

Interesting question... maybe 3 groups

* 1) Fools and wicked folks
This group will line up for the Mark of the Beast, simply because they are wicked and or fools

** 2) Folks that are playing religion but that really don't know Christ
This group will take it when the Anti-Christ turns up the pressure

*** 3) The Elect, born again Folks
This group will hold out and not take the mark... as Christ said "if it were possible) meaning it is not possible


* Romans 1:21-23
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

** Matthew 7:21-2
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

*** Matthew 24:
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

But it defiantly will be some tuff times for sure

[Alabama358]

@Alabama358. Do you believe the OT scriptures sometimes still have weight and answers? Read 1samuel 12:1, 19-24. We should serve the lord.

All Scripture OT and NT have equal weight. The Whole thing front to back is our Earthly Employee handbook if you will.

2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

[Alabama358]

We are not appointed to wrath’. Why would He beat up the bride before marrying her, kinda thing. Who can stand?’

The first (roughly) 3-1/2 years is not GOD's wrath...The last 3-1/2 years is GOD's wrath

It goes:

First 3-1/2 years - Tribulation and then Great Tribulation
Twinkling of Eye - Rapture
Last 3-1/2 years - GOD's Wrath

Read Matthew 24: 1-51

[Good Cheer]

I don’t know your doctrine too well. But what you said didn’t speak to my spirit that well. There won’t be any stress involved in the change over. The rapture should be next to happen. The key is that Paul said comfort each other with these words but I know some just don’t see it. It’s the usual saying it nonchalantly, still hidden. It is a form of death and changing to eternal life. We are not appointed to wrath’. Why would He beat up the bride before marrying her, kinda thing. Who can stand?’

All of mankind has always been given to die in all manner of ways; that's graduation rather than tribulation.
What you're referring to as beating up the bride is the time during which the faithful are delivered up to stand firm and are to say without premeditation what the holy spirit gives them to say.

As I said, the pretrib rapture theory hasn't convinced me, and partly that's because of there being what I see as some basic misconceptions on the part of those who preach it. The closest to making sense of it (the pretrib theory) that I've run upon was Chuck Missler but even with him there's a fundamental break in the foundations.
If you are correct in expecting a pretrib rapture, great!

[Rizzo]

The Rapture

So, for Christians, when you die you go to Heaven to be with God because your sins were forgiven when you received Christ as your Savior.
However, the Bible describes that at the time of the Rapture the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and reunited with the soul/spirit.

If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection?

Some seem to believe that when we die we go to a temporary place in a sleep state until the resurrection of the body, and then judgement.

But, Jesus told one of the men also being crucified with him "“Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise”. He said "today"....not some time later.

To me, the Rapture and events afterwards seems overly dramatic.
Trumpets sounding, people taken up, Spirits in Heaven reunited with their bodies, white horses in the sky, Jesus coming to earth to establish His kingdom, etc., etc.

Jesus' kingdowm is not on this material earth. It is a Spiritual place in the Spiritual Realms (Heaven).

What happened to the notion that when you die, you are judged and then you go where you deserve or need to be?

[Alabama358]

The Rapture

Rizzo,
Could you possibly declare what you believe?
Do you consider yourself a Christian?

[CBH]

I, too, believe the gates of heaven are narrower than many Christians would like to believe.

[Alabama358]

I, too, believe the gates of heaven are narrower than many Christians would like to believe.

Very True!

Matthew 7: 13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

[Rizzo]

Rizzo,
Could you possibly declare what you believe?
Do you consider yourself a Christian?

In general, a Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings.
I fall into that general definition but have some issues with what is in the Bible, such as we are not accountable for our sins if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior. Those who do accept Jesus get a free gift of salvation despite any sins they commit.
I believe we are accountable for our sins.

I believe in reincarnation also and because of that I have labeled myself (I really do not like labels) a Hybrid Christian when people ask what I am.
That is, a person who believes in Jesus and tries to follow His teachings, but also believes in reincarnation.
I also believe that there are some mis-translations/understandings to some passages in the Bible, such as the common understanding that only Christians get to the Father and everyone else goes to hell.
I do not believe that God is going to reject non-Christian, God loving people such as the Jews, etc.

So, that is where I am coming from and hope that I answered your questions.

[Alabama358]

In general, a Christian is a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings.
I fall into that general definition but have some issues with what is in the Bible, such as we are not accountable for our sins if we have accepted Jesus as our Savior. Those who do accept Jesus get a free gift of salvation despite any sins they commit.
I believe we are accountable for our sins.

I believe in reincarnation also and because of that I have labeled myself (I really do not like labels) a Hybrid Christian when people ask what I am.
That is, a person who believes in Jesus and tries to follow His teachings, but also believes in reincarnation.
I also believe that there are some mis-translations/understandings to some passages in the Bible, such as the common understanding that only Christians get to the Father and everyone else goes to hell.
I do not believe that God is going to reject non-Christian, God loving people such as the Jews, etc.

So, that is where I am coming from and hope that I answered your questions.

WOW!!! that must be difficult. Is that a self taught discipline or is there like a Hybrid Christian Church where you live.
It just seems that it would be difficult to connect all those dots