What do I have? Antique, or Franken-Gun?

[Gtrubicon]

No lock tight! As several have suggested you can find it at an auto parts store. I also put it on the nipple threads when I re install the nipple.

[bedbugbilly]

Nifty looking rifle. Looks like a rifle designed for target shooting in the mid 1800s to possibly post Civil War. Regardless fi the lock is marked with a name or not, it was probably purchased by the rifle maker from a company that produced locks at the time or a supplier of them.

As far as the breech plug goes - does it have a fine thread or a very coarse thread? Many of the earlier original rifles (flintlock) had a very coarse thread - this made it possible to un-breech the barrel if needed for things such as pushing out a stuck ball if it couldn't be retrieved by a ball screw - minimum tools required for it if you are out in the middle of nowhere. This certainly carried over into the percussion era for some makers.

The rifle looks well made and if I owned it, I would do the minimum to it to get it back in shooting shape. There is o way of knowing from the photos, but it is very possible that over the years and use of the rifle, repairs could have been made to keep it functional. That doesn't detract from it IMHO - it is all part of the history of the piece.

As an example, I have a percussion rifle that I purchased many years ago that came off of the Indian Reservation up near Mt. Pleasant in northern Michigan. It has a full stock that is curly maple - a "poor boy style" - i.e. no buttplate. The lock is original to the rifle as nothing has ever been done to the lock mortise. However, the full length stock was cut down in length at some point. The barrel, when removed and examined on the underside shows clear evidence of having been on at least two previous rifles based on old tendon locations that were hand dovetailed in to the bottom flat as well as locations where staple style tendons were once located. The barrel was probably around .36 caliber at one time but at some point it was bored out to about a .40 smooth bore. It has double set triggers. It shows wear and use, but all of those things are a part of the rifle's history.

All depends on how much you want to put into the rifle, but, if your goal is to get it to shooting again, have a gunsmith who is experienced in ML rifles examine the breech plug and threads to determine if it is safe to shoot. If not - there is always the possibility of finding a good welder/machinist that could re-work the original breech plug and the breech plug threads in the breech of the barrel to make it functionally safe. Clean the bore and see how she shoots. If it is a "no go" as far as shooting well, you could always send the barrel to Bobby Hoyt and have him freshen the barrel bore out - if it is a .40 - go to a .45 or have it sleeved to the .40 cal. if that is what you want.

From the photos, it looks like has a lot of potential.

[TheAbe]

Very interesting. Yes, it appears mine is similar, having pieces together or upgraded from earlier rifles. The barrel is polygonally rifled throughout, with a flat diameter of .336” and a grove diameter of ~.3615”. So not a .40 cal after all. The barrel also has an additional dovetail groove and another groove for a staple tendon? I’ll have to look that one up to be sure, but there is a groove that no longer serves a purpose.
On another ML forum, someone suggested the current lock was made by the Goulcher lock company, and it looks like one of their designs from what I can tell. However, it did not perfectly fit the stock, until just now when I made a couple of gentle curved filings around where various fittings were hitting the edge of the wood. Fits nicely now (snug but not requiring to be force-installed), and with the hammer screw being tightened (it was loose), the lock and dual triggers now set and function correctly every time.
Also, I would say the plug grooves are quite coarse, and one might be slightly damaged, but I’ll let my local expert on antique ML’s give his opinion on it. To me it looks like the stock was originally cut for a flintlock, and either was originally from a different flintlock rifle, or this one was converted with a new percussion lock at some point. Either way, the fit of the lock was not quite right, and is now.
There is also evidence it has not been fired in while, as there were both a fly and mosquito(?) carcass, very dried out, in the flash hole connecting piece (between barrel and nipple). They’ve been there a long time, and I was happy to evict them.

[Jackrabbit1957]

Hi The Abe, the lock does look like a Goulcher, they made thousands of them. As to the breechplug, it should be a tight fit, not loose and wobbly. If the threads are damaged it may need to be replaced. Biggest problem is venting gas at the breech and into your face. It could also separate itself from the barrel causing damage to the gun and you. If you wish to discuss it further please feel free to PM me.

[2152hq]

That Hexagon shaped bore is generally refered to as Whitworth style rifling.
In it's original form, the bullet was 6 sided as well and the rifling had a rather fast rate of twist compared to other muzzle loaders of the era.
You can search Whitworth Rifle and Rifling and see what they were doing.

That same style (six sided bore shape) was not difficult for gunsmiths using hand operated rifling equipment to cut their barrels as well. So it's also seen on some American gunsmith made muzzle loading rifles.
A slow rate of twist would be for a round ball Say anything around the 1-40 and slower.
Anything in the 1-20 would be rifles for a Picket Bullet,,or what we would normally call a flat based, round, or slightly pointed nose bullet these days.

I think that rifle was made as a percussion from the start. Just My opinion.
That extremely loose breech plug ...It should not be fired in that condition...

If anything on a M/L should be of first rate fit, it is the breech plug to bbl breech.

If you just want a wall hanger, that's fine, screw everything back together and hang it up.
But to shoot it, that has to be a tight and secure fit.

The other fit up that needs to be looked over and made right is the Drum and Nipple.

The Drum that is on the gun now appears to be a replacement made from the end/head of a some sort of bolt cut off.
That's OK if the threads on it and those in the bbl itself are fit tightly.
Loose threads the tighten up only as the two pieces join up are not acceptable.

This is another assembly that takes full breech pressure and can (and some have) blown out from the side of the bbl upon fireing.
The nipple looks to be hand made and extra long & narrow with no taper to it.
Again the threads on it and in the drum need to be fit perfectly and the nipple needs to 'seat' into/on the drum.
The stem of the nipple should accept with a slight resistance the percussion cap..

Some replacements, homemade and otherwise don't fit the threads quite right but are force fitted into place.
They may look OK, but a surprise can await when firing.


It may seem like a lot, but these and some other points to carefully check and repair if needed are necessary before firing any M/Ldr.
Even then, 'proof' fire with a remote firing before hand held firing.
Then keep your loads well within reason giving respect to the age and unkn history of the firearm.

[TheAbe]

Indeed! First area of attention will be the breach plug fit, and then the drum and nipple. Nipple is actually split, and appears to be made of brass....so a replacement is in order. I’ll check the drum as well, but to fix this one up to shoot, it’s sounding like it’s going to cost a bit more than I have available at the moment, but it’ll be worth having fixed at some point. Just need the funds. In the meantime, I’ll continue to investigate, and fix/replace what I can.
With regards to loads and projectiles, I’ve read that long cylindrical bullets are quite effective in actual Whitworth rifles, would the same be true in my case? Also, is there somewhere I could investigate what an appropriate lod would be for something like this? I know with an unusable breach plug looking for loads is “jumping the gun,” but it never hurts to start researching.

[TheAbe]

Ok, I finally had some time, and after an ordeal fixing my snowblower this morning, I decided to keep my tap & die set out and go at the breach/plug. I figured the worst I could do is damage something that already needed replacement/repair. The result: the plug threading is 1/2-13, which I happened to have in my set, and after carefully oiling and going over the threads, then cleaning out the debris, the plug is now a much more snug fit to the breach. No longer loose, the threads had become “confused” at the tip, and by going over with the proper die, they now mesh immediately. Still need to address the drum and nipple (drum is probably ok), but a bit of anti-seize on the threads and I think it will be good to go (once the stock cracks are fixed, stock pin replaced, etc).

[LAGS]

If your rifle has Standard Threads and not Metric Threads on the breech plug and possibly the nipple show that for the most part, the rifle was not built in Spain or Italy.
That leans towards that this is not some Copy that was produced in the 60's thru 80's overseas.