Dropped Gun Discharge!

[Thundarstick]

I was just reading an article, where a 1911 MK4 fell out of a man's pocket at a Craker Barrel, discharged, and wounded two bystanders.
How does a 1911 accidentally discharge from a drop?

[Lakehouse2012]

There is just too little information there to determine if this is an unintentional discharge or a defect of the gun....


Carried in pocket- was it in a holster?

If no, the he could have a coin or keys or other object against the trigger....

Was the trigger spring worn or modified?

Many other options as well

Sent from my SM-A526U using Tapatalk

[NC_JEFF]

Is their a handgun anywhere with more safeties, internal and external, than a 1911. I'm always skeptical of these kind of reports. A coin or knife can lodge in the trigger but can it move the trigger enough to allow a discharge, this means its also had to land on the grip safety and depress it enough to allow a discharge. A gun is only made to fire a bullet so when that happens it is "normal" , I know anything is possible but I've never experienced an accidental discharge from a dropped handgun. Alec Baldwin didnt pull the trigger either, remember?

[JimB..]

From a guy close to the investigation, it fired into a hard surface and a couple folks nearby were hit by splatter. Injuries were treated with band-aides. Owner was from Ohio, no concealed carry permit required so issue as NC still requires one, he was issued a citation. No charges filed as the man didn’t discharge the weapon. I haven’t heard that it was a MK4.

A 1911 can fire if dropped directly on the muzzle from a height above about 5’, but there isn’t enough info to figure out why his fired from a lesser height.

Local article is poorly written, it didn’t fire when he was picking it up per investigators.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/ne...274828706.html

[45_Colt]

If the thumb safety is off the sear can easily be jarred off the hammer hooks. More so if it has a light trigger. The half cock notch (or shelf) should catch the hammer. But who knows when a gun is bouncing around.

The grip safety only prevents the trigger from contacting and pushing on the disconnector/sear.

45_Colt

[JimB..]

As I understand history, the grip safety was to prevent injury or death to a horse or rider. The US Mil concern at the time was that a gun dropped by a mounted soldier would land muzzle up and fire. The risk is presumably due to momentum of the trigger, although I’ve never seen that in print.

Grip safety prevents this.

[Rapier]

Been a 1911 armorer for 50+ years. Never seen a 1911 with the thumb safety engaged and the grip safety extended, on safe, fire by being dropped, even out the door of an aircraft from 1200 feet.
This is why the 1911 is safe to carry loaded, cocked and locked. It takes 3 movements to fire it, only one on a DA revolver, it was designed by John Browning to replace the DA revolver
The 1911 was designed to replace the DA Army revolver, the automatic pistol was adopted in 1911, it was not designed to make horses safe or anything else safe, except to serve as a military sidearm, with stopping power in excess of the then current issue.

Without proof otherwise the LEOs must take the man's word, but an AD by dropping, no. More than likely cleared the mag, forgot he had a round in the chamber, and boom. Seen it done at a show by a dealer, he was immediately tossed out. He claimed a lot of stuff on his way to the parking lot.

[725]

Never say never; too little information to conclude a definitive answer. Assumptions as to the engagement of the safety, working condition of the grip safety, etc. all open up the possibility of an AD. I agree if all is as it should be, the 1911 is a very safe gun. The real world has a way of gumming things up and allowing the unintended to occur.

[1Hawkeye]

I agree with rapier ,something the owner did set it off and if I remember right a mk 4 is a series 80 which means it has a firing pin block that doesn't let the pin move until the trigger is pulled.

[Larry Gibson]

"I didn't fire it, the gun fired after falling out of my pocket".....

Kinda sounds like another we've heard recently ....."I didn't pull the trigger".......

[Thundarstick]

Link to what I read. I've heard of striker fired guns discharging, but not a 1911.

https://www.kktv.com/2023/05/08/poli...-it-2-injured/

[MUSTANG]

Years ago in the USMC we had 1911's issued from the armory for guard duty that were so worn that going to the range it was not uncommon while aiming at the target to tilt slightly left and slightly right to "Center" the slide on the frame before firing to keep them on the target. These were 1911's that were originally fielded in the 1930's & 1940's - frames exceptionally loose because of the decades of firing they had been through.

On guard duty; the 1911's were "Safety Wired" with a very thin piece of copper wire, round in the chamber - cocked and locked. This was done because of the numerous what we called back then "Illegal Discharges". The problem was 1911's at times were firing when the slide safety was dropped. Back then - never heard of an Illegal Discharge occurring other than that process. Some commands; it was an office hour event to break the safety wire unless a valid Armed Response where weapon was readied for use/used occurred.

I have had one "Unintended Discharge" in my life. 8 years old and my dad was teaching to hunt quail - Remington Model 11 "HumpBack", and after I shot a quail I was so excited I still had my finger on the trigger and fired a round off in the air. Memory is as fresh today as those many years ago; setting the stage for a life of check/double check/triple check and then be sure to now at all times where that muzzle is pointed.

I have numerous 1911's and carry with them often. Dropping one takes an extreme level of inattention and firearm control in my opinion.

[Hickok]

" fumbled to pick up the gun he had dropped...a bullet fired into the wall......"

Safety off, round in the chamber, gripped the pistol, pulled the trigger...in the embarrassment, adrenaline rush, and excitement of the moment, he defeated all the safety mechanisms built into the 1911.

Watch anyone who is not properly trained when they pick up or hold a handgun. They always grip the gun and put their finger on the trigger! Either the safety was off, or he mindlessly thumbed it off when gripping the pistol.

[HumptyDumpty]

Barring a defect or unsafe modification to the firearm, I do not believe such claims about the 1911. Perhaps if it had a floating firing pin, but overcoming that spring requires significant inertia. This man's tests seem to confirm my suspicion: https://sightm1911.com/lib/tech/inertial_discharge.htm

Reader's Digest version: Repeated muzzle-first drops onto asphalt, from up-to fifteen feet, failed to ignite the primer.

A friend of mine got a box full of 1911 parts a while back (all the leftovers from decades of amateur gunsmiths projects). If he still has them, perhaps I can cobble something together.

[barnetmill]

From a guy close to the investigation, it fired into a hard surface and a couple folks nearby were hit by splatter. Injuries were treated with band-aides. Owner was from Ohio, no concealed carry permit required so issue as NC still requires one, he was issued a citation. No charges filed as the man didn’t discharge the weapon. I haven’t heard that it was a MK4.

A 1911 can fire if dropped directly on the muzzle from a height above about 5’, but there isn’t enough info to figure out why his fired from a lesser height.


Local article is poorly written, it didn’t fire when he was picking it up per investigators.
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/ne...274828706.html

The height at which 1911 without a firing pin block will discharge when dropped on the end of barrel will depend on several factors. One will be the the strength of the coil spring that is around the firing pin. The stronger the spring, the more force it will take for the firing pin to go forward and strike the primer sufficiently to detonate it.
A GI spec spring is routinely cut to remove coil(s) at the same time that coils are cut from the hammer mainspring. It is called balancing the springs.
The series 80s have a trigger actuated firing pin block as one finds in glocks.

[JimB..]

" fumbled to pick up the gun he had dropped...a bullet fired into the wall......"

Safety off, round in the chamber, gripped the pistol, pulled the trigger...in the embarrassment, adrenaline rush, and excitement of the moment, he defeated all the safety mechanisms built into the 1911.

Watch anyone who is not properly trained when they pick up or hold a handgun. They always grip the gun and put their finger on the trigger! Either the safety was off, or he mindlessly thumbed it off when gripping the pistol.

This is why I asked, the answer was quite clear. But I’m not entirely convinced, but don’t have facts.

[JimB..]

The height at which 1911 without a firing pin block will discharge when dropped on the end of barrel will depend on several factors. One will be the the strength of the coil spring that is around the firing pin. The stronger the spring, the more force it will take for the firing pin to go forward and strike the primer sufficiently to detonate it.
A GI spec spring is routinely cut to remove coil(s) at the same time that coils are cut from the hammer mainspring. It is called balancing the springs.
The series 80s have a trigger actuated firing pin block as one finds in glocks.

Height, surface, angle of impact, mass of the firing pin and strength of the firing pin spring are I think the critical factors. Old gunsmith around here did some testing with an old slide and was popping primers at 5 or 6 feet, but I don’t know anything about his setup. I think most folks use a firing pin spring that’s heavier than GI spec, I consider it like adding a recoil buffer, but I don’t judge.

[JimB..]

A friend of mine got a box full of 1911 parts a while back (all the leftovers from decades of amateur gunsmiths projects). If he still has them, perhaps I can cobble something together.

Please do, I’d have done it but don’t have a slide or barrel that I feel like boogering up.

[Thundarstick]

" fumbled to pick up the gun he had dropped...a bullet fired into the wall......"

Safety off, round in the chamber, gripped the pistol, pulled the trigger...in the embarrassment, adrenaline rush, and excitement of the moment, he defeated all the safety mechanisms built into the 1911.

Watch anyone who is not properly trained when they pick up or hold a handgun. They always grip the gun and put their finger on the trigger! Either the safety was off, or he mindlessly thumbed it off when gripping the pistol.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the trigger was pulled! I just don't see it happening with a seated pocket, or even falling from a jacket pocket while putting it on. I'm of the opinion that pocket guns need to be in a pocket holster as well.

[varmintpopper]

Never say never; too little information to conclude a definitive answer. Assumptions as to the engagement of the safety, working condition of the grip safety, etc. all open up the possibility of an AD. I agree if all is as it should be, the 1911 is a very safe gun. The real world has a way of gumming things up and allowing the unintended to occur.

Read The Safety/function checks.
www.m1911.org//technic23.htm