Accuracy testing standards?

[Murphy]

I've been giving some thought to handgun accuracy these past few months, actually many years before now.

The "Standard" test for accuracy was done at 25 yards back in the late 70's when I began handloading. If I recall correctly, any brand name decent gun was expected to shoot a 3" group at 25 yards. It seems that standard has fallen by the wayside. I'll head over to Youtube to watch reviews about various handguns. Once the smoke has cleared, it seems 7 yards is about the limit for the majority of those testing some of the newer handguns. If it will hold a group of less than 2-2.5"s it's deemed awesome. Okay, I get it. The vast majority of those doing the testing never plan on having to shoot it past that distance, even if it's a full sized 1911 or 4" revolver. My 69 year old eyes (with corrective lens) won't allow me to do that even off sandbags these days. I do realize many carry the smaller concealable various 9's and 380 Autos with 3" barrels.

So, what is your acceptable accuracy standard for your CCW handgun? I am fully aware that most self defense encounters take place from point blank point of contact out to around 20 feet. But, there's always exceptions and no guarantees it will.


Murphy

[Outpost75]

One inch per ten yards for six shots sand bagged with service ammunition has been an acceptance standard for revolvers since black powder days. Still works.

When I was at Ruger in the 1980s police revolvers were targeted at 20 yards taking a 6:00 hold on a 2" aiming black. A 3" circle was printed tangent at 6:00 to the aiming circle. All six shot had to strike within the 3" circle with at least 3 shots of six either in or cutting the 2-in h aiming point with .38. Special +P or .357.

[megasupermagnum]

I won't carry a handgun that isn't effective at 50 yards. I'm willing to allow leeway with my fixed sight LCR for convenience, but anything else has real sights, and will shoot under 6" at 50 yards. 3 of them shoot 3"-4" at 50 yards. That's as a 25 shot average. You will never get that accuracy back from practice, either your handgun can mechanically do it, or it can't. I've never drawn my carry gun in self defense. I've drawn it a number of times on animals, and except for a single deer I shot at like 10 yards, every other animal I can think of was over 30 yards. That includes a raccoon I shot at something like 65 yards. Carrying a fullsize handgun like a 1911 that can't do that is bizzare.

[dverna]

Like in everything else, you are witnessing the dumbing down of things.

But CCW is one area where it might be OK.

IMO 3” at 25 yards off a rest is more than adequate. I doubt many people can hold 6” groups at 25 yards from what I have observed at public ranges.

When I took the 4 day course at Frontsight, the longest ranges were 15 yards IIRC.

Oid guys like me grew up shooting NRA Bullseye so using iron sights at 50 yards was no big deal. IIRC the 10 ring was 3.3”, and you had it to hit it most of time shooting one handed to win a trinket. At 25 yards, you had to hit it almost all the time shooting timed and rapid fire. Mall ninja’s have no clue how to shoot.

[FergusonTO35]

The mass acceptance of CCW has really changed things, in most ways for the better. For example, autoloaders are way more dependable now than they used to be because they are expected to eat a variety of ammo and function under adverse conditions. I've been shooting and hunting for almost 40 years and I accept the fact that I'll never be a traditional bullseye shooter, I'm just not made to do it. I practice with my handguns at 7-15 yards because that is where I can be effective with them.

[shooting on a shoestring]

For clarity, and to satisfy my sense of perfectness, you’re mixing 2 concepts. Precision is a measure of how small your group is. Accuracy is how far the group is from the bullseye (sight adjustment). Or another definition of accuracy is “can you hit it?”

Your question is a good one. My answer is…..it varies.

I think of my carry guns in two groups. Long range and oh damn!

Long range for me means length of grocery store isle, other side of restaurant, mall food court or parking lot distances. For that I want a gun and load that has precision good enough for me to see 2-3” bench rested 25 yard groups. And standing with 2-hand grip, hit copy paper at 25 yds. (That’s precision 2-3” groups and accuracy, more to do with my ability, hitting copy paper at 25 yards). For me it’s a big gun. 4” or longer revolver, 5” 1911 and rarely a striker fired polymer. That’s a shoulder holster piece. Shoulder holster means really slow draw from inside of shirt.

Oh damn! distance is meth-head jumping out from behind gas pump (happened to me once, didn’t have to shoot) and similar. For those I’d be firing from a retention stance with the gun belly button high tight by my side. Precision, not useful. Small gun drawn fast, essential. The old man habit of keeping hand in britches pocket…around a LCR, LCP, P365, Micro 380 etc… is a good habit. Handy at times.

[Thumbcocker]

Even back in the day the writer would fudge some. One code phrase was that the gun displayed "acceptable combat accuracy" without listing group size.

In our current reality people are buying guns for shooting at other people due to fear mongering by all sides. The number of folks buying guns because they are interesting machine with a fascinating history is a tiny fraction of the market. Gunfights and bear attacks rule.

Manufacturers can sell any polymer framed striker fired turd that will stay on a silhouette target at 7 yards to people who have no idea of a handguns potential for entertainment, feeding you, and just enjoyable time shooting. The gun market has been saturated for decades the only thing keeping manufacturers going is the self defense market and trying to convince shooters that the newest cartridge / gun combo is light years better that tried and proven designs.

[Don Purcell]

This! The spray and pray method on t.v. and movies has taken over from accurate but it is all for the excitement factor. Body a police shootings show the same thing, quantity of shots over accuracy of shots. The old saw of every round has to be accounted for seems to have fallen by the wayside.

[rintinglen]

Put me in the traditionalist school. When I read some gun writer crowing over the excellent groups he's getting at 7 yards, my eyes roll and I discount everything he has to say. Call me outdated, but I have spent a fair bit of time and ammo testing my carry guns. If it won't hold the nine ring at 25 yards, two-hands, off-hand, it doesn't cut the mustard. A full size handgun should group a cylinder or magazine in <3" off sandbags at 25 yards to be acceptable. A compact gun should run no more than 5" at the same distance.

It drives me nuts when I read or hear someone say, "Oh all I care about is something to just get him off me." Like we can predict where or when we will have to engage. The criminal chooses. Now if he is planning to rob you, he'll get close. But if he is just some kookoo clock, raised on "Call of Duty," looking to run up a body count he may be some distance away. You need to be able to respond appropriately. If your gun won't hold 3" at 25 yards from the bench, no matter your level of skill, you won't either.

[Rapier]

A shooter, under stress without practice, makes mistakes. A mistake in a paper shooting type match means you do not win. In a gun fight there is no second or third place. Folks simply do not get that.....
If I had a dollar for every FOP participant that said I never intend to use my gun, when asked why they do not practice, I would have a stack of money. My stock response was, you might need to use your gun to save a life.

[Larry Gibson]

I recently acquired two handgun rests; a Lee precision Rest and a Ransom rest. After properly mounting them (per the Ransom Rest instructions) I did some testing at 50 yards with both using my old service 5" S&W M15 38 SPL and my Contender. The M15 has always been a very accurate revolver for me. I was testing the M15 in the Lee Rest with some of my "standard" 38 SPL loads; a Lee 158 TL over 3.5 gr of Bullseye with the bullets just visually inspected and all loaded on a Dillon SDB. I can bounce a pop can around all day long out to 25 yards with that load. At 50 yards I was getting 4 - 6" 12 shot groups. I also tried Speer's 158 LSWC and it gave the same 4 - 6" twelve shot groups. I then though I must be doing something wrong with the rest but decided to try some old Remington Target Master WCs I had left over from my PPC days back in the late '70s. The 12 rounds of the Remington went into a noce group 1.95" wide and just over 3" tall......hmmmmmm.

I next tried the Contender in the Ransom Rest with both my own "standard" load and the Speer's. Ten shot groups at 50 yards with both ran 4 - 5". I then ran a test with some Underwood factory +P loads. Both types of those 38 SPL +P loads (one hard cast and one with soft cast HP bullets) gave 2" +/- ten shot groups. I also tried a 10 shot group of my FBI 38 SPL load which is a soft cast (40-1 alloy) 358156 GC'd and HP'd over 5.5 gr of Unique. Those went int a 2.5" group.

That gave me a good idea of the "precision" capability of the ammunition tested.

Appears I need to work on the quality of bullets used in my "standard" load........

[contender1]

Outpost75 has given a stated measurement. It's one I heard LONG ago, (decades,) and still adhere to.

CCW,, and 7 yards is a joke of a way of measurement. If you are that close, or closer,, there WILL be stress and activity that can & will interfere with precision. (I know,, my Mother was pepper sprayed & attacked in her store about 20 years ago.) Using a gun, if you can get it out & are capable of making it go bang,, you will want all the quality & accuracy you can get from a mechanical object,, (your gun.)

I think it was Col. Townsen Wheelen who said; "Only accurate rifles are interesting." (Forgive me if I'm wrong.) But to paraphrase that,, "Only accurate GUNS are interesting. And accuracy is a subjective thing to many. I prefer my handguns to be accurate at 25 yds as a STARTING point. I shoot handguns to 100 yds often (max distance at my range,) and much further whenever I can. I'm also a realist, in that I also shoot in USPSA competition. That's a game that adds stresses to a shooter, AND requires accuracy.

Sadly,, as noted in many posts above,, too many people fail to understand what it takes to be an accurate shooter. To make up for poor performance,, many shorten the distance to a target to get to an "acceptable" accuracy for their purposes.

[garywg]

This guy says it well.

[dtknowles]

Testing a CCW off sandbags is not all that useful. The major factor is going to be the shooter. Even with my best target handgun I can't hold 2" groups offhand at 25 yards. In self-defense not every shot has to count, you are going to be firing more than one shot. Offhand (standing, no rest) 10 shots to clean an 8" plate rack of 6 plates at 25 yards seems more than good enough.

If you can't do that maybe you need to drop down to some sandbags and shoot some groups to find out what's the problem. Could be the gun, the ammo or the shooter. If you can't clean the plate rack with a quality full-size handgun your not going to do better with a CCW.

At 7 yards every shot should be in the kill zone on a lifesize target, better yet every shot should be in the head shot kill zone. What is the saying one in the head and two in the chest.

I think it is a given that some accuracy is given up when you have to conceal the weapon (CCW has shorter sight radius, poor sights, short barrel, more recoil.) I would expect better accuracy for an open carry full size handgun. It should never miss an 8" plate at 25 yards. Should shoot 2" groups at 25 yards off a rest.

Tim

[megasupermagnum]

Testing a CCW off sandbags is not all that useful. The major factor is going to be the shooter. Even with my best target handgun I can't hold 2" groups offhand at 25 yards. In self-defense not every shot has to count, you are going to be firing more than one shot. Offhand (standing, no rest) 10 shots to clean an 8" plate rack of 6 plates at 25 yards seems more than good enough.

If you can't do that maybe you need to drop down to some sandbags and shoot some groups to find out what's the problem. Could be the gun, the ammo or the shooter. If you can't clean the plate rack with a quality full-size handgun your not going to do better with a CCW.

At 7 yards every shot should be in the kill zone on a lifesize target, better yet every shot should be in the head shot kill zone. What is the saying one in the head and two in the chest.

I think it is a given that some accuracy is given up when you have to conceal the weapon (CCW has shorter sight radius, poor sights, short barrel, more recoil.) I would expect better accuracy for an open carry full size handgun. It should never miss an 8" plate at 25 yards. Should shoot 2" groups at 25 yards off a rest.

Tim

I think the point he was trying to make is these accuracy "tests" today are pointless. There are tons of guns out there today meant for concealed carry that can't make effective hits at 50 yards from a ransom rest. There's plenty that you would have to be 100% on the ball just to hit a man sized target at 25 yards. At 7 yards, what difference does it make? At 7 yards, a world class 1911 is pretty much the same as a dirt cheap Mossberg MC2. Practicing shooting at 7 yards is fine. Testing accuracy at 7 yards is asinine. You could have a smooth bore shooting a rock, and it would be pretty accurate at 7 yards. Either test the accuracy potential, or don't. Publishing 7 yard accuracy "tests", or saying "combat accurate" is not acceptable. Rant over.

While practice is always the key, if you are shooting a Hipoint C9 that off sandbags you can shoot 6" at 25 yard groups, no amount of practice will ever allow you to make hits at 50 yards, and you probably won't be very good at 25 either, mechanically it just isn't there. I honestly have no idea how accurate a Hipoint can be, so sorry if yours is much better. I have no way of knowing how accurate they can be because no magazine or article will do such a test, likely because it wouldn't be impressive.

[44MAG#1]

The weakest link in accuracy is the shooter. Work on the weakest link first before getting an ulcer over the gun.
After many, many, many, many years as a member at a shooting range and 2 or 3 at another range also plus shooting at indoor ranges I can say WITHOUT a doubt that few handgun shooters are actually good shots.
Of course if anyone calls hitting a paper plate offhand at 25 yards good than there is something lacking in judgement.

[dtknowles]

The weakest link in accuracy is the shooter. Work on the weakest link first before getting an ulcer over the gun.
After many, many, many, many years as a member at a shooting range and 2 or 3 at another range also plus shooting at indoor ranges I can say WITHOUT a doubt that few handgun shooters are actually good shots.
Of course if anyone calls hitting a paper plate offhand at 25 yards good than there is something lacking in judgement.

Hitting a paper plate every time at 25 yards, offhand with an issued (police or military) type handgun might not be good but it is in my mind adequate for self-defense. Doing it with a snubby or a shrunk down semi-auto I think is kind of impressive.
Tim

[44MAG#1]

Hitting a paper plate every time at 25 yards, offhand with an issued (police or military) type handgun might not be good but it is in my mind adequate for self-defense. Doing it with a snubby or a shrunk down semi-auto I think is kind of impressive.
Tim

I was talking about slow fire deliberate shooting. Even doing that very, very, very few are good shooters. Regardless of the handgun size or calibers. Handguns made by the Malleable Parts and Thrown Together Company may be a different story.

[dverna]

I recently acquired two handgun rests; a Lee precision Rest and a Ransom rest. After properly mounting them (per the Ransom Rest instructions) I did some testing at 50 yards with both using my old service 5" S&W M15 38 SPL and my Contender. The M15 has always been a very accurate revolver for me. I was testing the M15 in the Lee Rest with some of my "standard" 38 SPL loads; a Lee 158 TL over 3.5 gr of Bullseye with the bullets just visually inspected and all loaded on a Dillon SDB. I can bounce a pop can around all day long out to 25 yards with that load. At 50 yards I was getting 4 - 6" 12 shot groups. I also tried Speer's 158 LSWC and it gave the same 4 - 6" twelve shot groups. I then though I must be doing something wrong with the rest but decided to try some old Remington Target Master WCs I had left over from my PPC days back in the late '70s. The 12 rounds of the Remington went into a noce group 1.95" wide and just over 3" tall......hmmmmmm.

I next tried the Contender in the Ransom Rest with both my own "standard" load and the Speer's. Ten shot groups at 50 yards with both ran 4 - 5". I then ran a test with some Underwood factory +P loads. Both types of those 38 SPL +P loads (one hard cast and one with soft cast HP bullets) gave 2" +/- ten shot groups. I also tried a 10 shot group of my FBI 38 SPL load which is a soft cast (40-1 alloy) 358156 GC'd and HP'd over 5.5 gr of Unique. Those went int a 2.5" group.

That gave me a good idea of the "precision" capability of the ammunition tested.

Appears I need to work on the quality of bullets used in my "standard" load........

Interesting. I would have expected the Contender to do better.

Makes me wonder if the Ransom Rest is anchored well enough. At the range we used for testing, we had a cement pier sunk into the ground as the platform for the RR.

[Good Cheer]

The hand cannon can canon works for me.
If I hit the bouncing can I'm OK.
I'm partial to the .40 caliber.