Graf & SonsInline FabricationLee PrecisionMidSouth Shooters Supply
RotoMetals2Titan ReloadingStainLess Steel MediaADvertise here

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 60

Thread: Flintlock mythbusters

  1. #21
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer


    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    16,678
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron60 View Post
    Actually, no. Jean and loved the folks in Cut Bank - the geography was something else but the people made up for it. Was pastoring there and got what on the face of it looked like a "great opportunity" in Lewistown - lasted 11 months and I couldn't stand it any more. The Alaska thing was a God Send and just seemed to work out naturally. It's awesome here. Great people and great country and as far from the shenanigans going on is D.C. as possible. It's almost like a different country. A throw back to what America was 40 - 50 years ago.
    On Flint locks; it's tough country here for them. Lots of rain and high humidity. So they have to be tuned to a fair thee well.
    As noted in the tests the human senses are a terrible measure of the minute variations in lock time. So I have made my main criteria speed and reliability. If you ever read the story of Simon Kenton you'll recall as "fast" rifle lock almost cost him his life and did cost him a long stay in captivity. Once free he had him a gun made using a well tuned musket lock. Not quite as fast as a nice sporting rifle lock but it was reliable.
    If I ever get to hunt a brown bear with a flint lock here reliability - then speed is going to be the order of my tuning efforts. Any good flint shooter knows than once the trigger is squeezed you have to be ready for anything from super quick ignition to hang fires so you practice, practice follow through.
    How's things in Somers? I heard it was really hot this year. Yesterday was our warmest day of the summer at 71 - - - for about three hours.
    Ron
    I'm surprised you didn't like Lewistown. One of my favorite places in the state.
    This has been about the nicest summer I have seen here, not real hot, some rain.
    Most of the old crew is still around, had a beer with Taylor and some other Freetrappers yesterday.
    Fine rifle you built for Jim Sharp. A real masterpiece!

    I appear to have hijacked my own thread!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  2. #22
    Boolit Man

    SamTexas49's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    E Texas
    Posts
    114
    Another bit of info I recall reading and seeing a video demonstration on a "well tuned" flintlock is you can submerg it in a bucket of water (clsed of course) bring out and fire it ! If the fits pefect then no water gets in pan !

  3. #23
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer


    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    16,678
    Quote Originally Posted by SameTexas49 View Post
    Another bit of info I recall reading and seeing a video demonstration on a "well tuned" flintlock is you can submerg it in a bucket of water (clsed of course) bring out and fire it ! If the fits pefect then no water gets in pan !

    I'd like to see that one. I know of no way to totally waterproof a flintlock. I know you can seal open edges with a grease or wax, and it will help somewhat. It is water that migrates in the barrel channel to the bolster area that is generally the problem. I carry mine with a scrap of wool blanket over the lock area, and have no ignition problems in rain or snow.
    Welcome aboard!
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  4. #24
    Boolit Man

    SamTexas49's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    E Texas
    Posts
    114
    been way to long ago I came across that bit of info but it was a "dip test" lock on rifle.

  5. #25
    Boolit Bub Ron60's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Kodiak Island, Alaska
    Posts
    30
    I used to use Snow Seal around the pan. Didn't seem to make all that much difference.
    Again; out in the field is a whole different ball game than in the "lab" ( or kitchen with a bucket of water!) - - - "Dip Test", good name =)
    Anyway if your hunting with your trusty flinlock, just the moisture in the air on a rainy day will often ruin the charge in the pan even if you could somehow keep the water out.
    I have not hunted with a flintlock yet here on Kodiak Island. I suspect I'm going to have to satisfy myself with a caplock most of the time. Happily we get to hunt clear through the end of December so get some nice brisk days of sun and cold. Good flintlock weather.
    RE: Lewistown. The the fellow who was the district supervisor for the 'job' I had there was really what made it unbearable - but he was himself, was a 'feriner' from the left coast. Opportunity called here - took it, have not been sorry.
    I could say my only regret is that we did not discover Alaska when we were young.

  6. #26
    Boolit Master

    firefly1957's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Harrison Michigan
    Posts
    1,927
    Something I have not seen mentioned and it has a lot of effect is the touch hole it's self. The shape and the depth to powder charge have an effect on ignition. My only flintlock is a Hatfield and it uses a SS liner which works well. I installed the same liner in a 40 cal. Green Mountain barrel I installed as I was unhappy with the original 35 caliber barrel ( supposed to be 36 ).

  7. #27
    Boolit Man


    GMW's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    North Eastern Woods of PA
    Posts
    129
    Here is a good reason to make sure your powder horn is capped and safety glasses are not a bad idea:

  8. #28
    Boolit Master

    RBak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Columbia Basin, Eastern Washington
    Posts
    443
    Quote Originally Posted by SamTexas49 View Post
    Another bit of info I recall reading and seeing a video demonstration on a "well tuned" flintlock is you can submerg it in a bucket of water (clsed of course) bring out and fire it ! If the fits pefect then no water gets in pan !
    Chambers still has the Round Faced Lock which is advertised as having a water proof pan......
    I couldn't get the picture but this is what's said about this lock.

    Round Face English Flintlock
    Model #L-12

    This lock is interchangeable with the Colonial Virginia lock, but has the added features of a relief border around the plate and cock, and a raised waterproof pan. Both locks have the cam-type action, a sear that remains in the same position throughout the cocking cycle, and a very long service life. Locks of this quality would have been found on high-grade English fowlers or officers' fuses.

    http://www.flintlocks.com/locks4.htm

    I have a .62 smoothbore with this lock and it's a pretty nice lock....sparks like crazy everytime, charge has never gotten damp, and that's what it's all about.
    There's probably others that are as good, or maybe even better, but I ain't found no fleas on this dog. It's a good lock.

    Russ
    When it comes to Muzzle Loaders, Black Powder Matters.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,298
    Something I've been wondering about, perhaps one of you guys knows the answer.

    Would an ignition point at the front of the powder space, just behind the bullet, make for a more efficient propelling impulse of the gases and cleaner burning?

    Only reason this comes to mind is that at one time they marketed cartridge cases with a flash tube that ran from the primer pocket to just behind where the bullet base would be when seated. The charge burned from front to back instead of from back to front.

    Another question.
    Napolean's heavy artillery achieved greater range for the same amount of powder by using a powder chamber much smaller than the bore size.
    As the powder first begain to burn and pushed the cannon ball further up the bore the amount of space the powder had to burn in greatly increased. Something like this is achieved with the high/low pressure charge chamber inside the 40mm grenade casings. The powder burns at a high pressure but the propellent gas pressure is released through vents to provide a long steady acceleration rather than a sharp kick in the pants.

    I think this sort of breech (the Napoleanic powder chamber) was used on some muzzle loaders, but none that I've encountered so far.
    The effect , so far as acceleration of the projectile goes) was similar to a progressive burning powder.
    Are any modern muzzle loaders made this way?

  10. #30
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    CassCoMo
    Posts
    1,053
    On the Flintlock forum? Is nothing sacred?

    All kidding aside I think that ulta modern musket loaders are made that way, but don't know for sure never had my grubby paws on one.

  11. #31
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Posts
    4,298
    Quote Originally Posted by rhbrink View Post
    On the Flintlock forum? Is nothing sacred?

    All kidding aside I think that ulta modern musket loaders are made that way, but don't know for sure never had my grubby paws on one.
    I should have said Modern Replica Muzzle loaders. I have no use for the sort of adapted breakdown single shot and inline bolt guns you're thinking of when I said modern.

    I meant the traditional style muzzle loaders manufactured in recent times.

    I suppose the Napoleanic artillery powder chamber could be easily replicated for testing purposes by making a custom breech plug or sleeving the breech of one of those break down guns.

    PS
    I just remembered the term "Patent Breech" . A quick search revealed that replicas of some muzzle loaders like the Whitworth target rifles can be found with the patent breech with under bore size powder chamber.
    Since this powder chamber dates back to flintlock days I guess they likely used it for some flintlock shoulder arms as well.
    Only real drawback seems to be difficulty in cleaning the powder chamber.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 01-07-2011 at 03:56 PM.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    CassCoMo
    Posts
    1,053
    Thats good all is forgiven then!

  13. #33
    Boolit Master

    Hickory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Great Black Swamp of Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    3,157
    Quote Originally Posted by GMW View Post
    Here is a good reason to make sure your powder horn is capped and safety glasses are not a bad idea:
    I was in the southern part of Ohio one fall deer hunting with a muzzleloader.
    I had been a dry month or so, and it was like walking on corn flakes, which can be good or bad, depending on who or what is walking.

    It was in the after noon and I was setting at the base of a tree sort of dozing but not asleep. I heard crunching about a hundred yards away.
    A six point was moving throw the wood as if no one was around.

    I got a bead on him and was about to shoot, when he made it easier for me by stopping. At the shot he dropped where he stood. Keeping my eyes on him I reloaded and walking towards him.

    I was almost up to him when I smelled smoke. I turned around and where I had been setting the leaves on the ground were on fire.
    It took a few minutes but I got the fire out.
    If your not careful a person can really make thing hot.
    Last edited by Hickory; 01-07-2011 at 05:52 PM.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  14. #34
    Boolit Mold fliintlock555's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Atlanta GA
    Posts
    12
    New here and was wondering about the testing in that it didn't vary the size of the vent hole.
    Any info on doing this

  15. #35
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer


    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    16,678
    I don't believe they did various vent sizes. From my experience, it seems the smaller you can use and get consistent ignition the better. A smaller hole gives a more concentrated flame. I've seen some guys that have self priming locks, that I consider very dangerous. Enlarged vents can also allow a large amount of powder to be blasted out of the hole while loading, giving a short charge.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  16. #36
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,277
    Here are some guidelines about touch hole diameter from Larry Pletcher:

    The difference between the area of 1/16" hole and 5/64" is much bigger than one thinks. The area of a 5/64" hole is 56% larger than 1/16". If you decide to drill larger there are 5 different numbered bits between these 2 sizes:

    1/16" = 0.0625
    52 = 0.064
    51 = 0.067
    50 = 0.070
    49 = 0.073
    48 = 0.076
    5/64" = 0.078

    Your local hardware has these. I'd start with a #52 bit and go progressive larger until you get the reliability you want. Don't go larger than necessary.

    What Larry Pletcher has observed:
    1. A 1/16" vent works well if properly located, kept clean, and properly maintained.
    2. A clean vent is more important than a large vent.
    3. I like #51 bit hole not because it fires better, but because a pipe cleaner fits - (remember "clean in #1.)
    4. A dirty large vent does work better than a dirty small vent.


    Also, with respect to not keeping your powder horn, powder can, pan charger tightly closed, the March, 2011 "Muzzle Blasts" has an article about this hazard. It's called "A Brass Grenade," by Roger Fisher, and graphically shows what can happen when little things are ignored or forgotten.
    Last edited by Maven; 03-03-2011 at 08:04 PM. Reason: factual error

  17. #37
    Boolit Bub
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    i live in eastern ky in the foothils
    Posts
    21
    Quote Originally Posted by Old Ironsights View Post
    Myth: Caplocks ignite faster than a properly tuned Flintlock.

    I've seen flinters go off as fast as a cartridge gun.

    And a properly tuned flintlock will also fire UPSIDE-DOWN.

    They are amazing machines.
    i agree. i tried firing my flintlock upside down just to see cause i thought it wouldnt and it fired just thesame as right side up .

  18. #38
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Hagerstown, MD
    Posts
    421
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron60 View Post
    For what it's worth.
    I always modify flint locks on guns I build (last 20 years or so) so that the outer end of the pan is both deeper and wider than the portion which is closest to the vent. I weld the pans up so I can make the pan not much larger at the vent than the size of the vent hole.
    This borrows from some technology familliar to explosives users called a shaped charge.
    I position the vent so that the center of the hole is on the same level as the center of the top of the pan. With the pan full of 4FG there's still 50% of the vent open.
    The hot jet of gas produced by the priming powder burning is what ignites the main charge. This set up gets the powder both close to the vent so close to the charge and there's plenty of it with the larger capacity for powder at the outer end.
    Personally I prefer the bulk of the prime at the outside of the pan. But with this set up there's still some right at the vent. The large capacity of primer simply makes for good reliable ignition even if everything is not perfect. This arrangement does not quite guarantee ignition with the lock up side down or canted away from the vent.
    If anyone is interest I can try to post some digrams of how I do this. The British had if figured out pretty early.
    Hope this helps someone out there. Not all flint locks are created equal. It can safely be said that it's a lot more trouble coming up with a good, fast, and reliable flint lock than a cap lock that simply works.
    Ron Paull
    I wholly agree. I've built two with the vent positioned exactly as you stated. Seldom do I have a shot not fire . . . and they fire fast. I have no need to fire upside down.
    Last edited by Pigslayer; 12-25-2011 at 09:04 AM.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

    nicholst55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Daegu, Korea
    Posts
    2,623
    Quote Originally Posted by Multigunner View Post
    Something I've been wondering about, perhaps one of you guys knows the answer.

    Would an ignition point at the front of the powder space, just behind the bullet, make for a more efficient propelling impulse of the gases and cleaner burning?

    Only reason this comes to mind is that at one time they marketed cartridge cases with a flash tube that ran from the primer pocket to just behind where the bullet base would be when seated. The charge burned from front to back instead of from back to front.

    Another question.
    Napolean's heavy artillery achieved greater range for the same amount of powder by using a powder chamber much smaller than the bore size.
    As the powder first begain to burn and pushed the cannon ball further up the bore the amount of space the powder had to burn in greatly increased. Something like this is achieved with the high/low pressure charge chamber inside the 40mm grenade casings. The powder burns at a high pressure but the propellent gas pressure is released through vents to provide a long steady acceleration rather than a sharp kick in the pants.

    I think this sort of breech (the Napoleanic powder chamber) was used on some muzzle loaders, but none that I've encountered so far.
    The effect , so far as acceleration of the projectile goes) was similar to a progressive burning powder.
    Are any modern muzzle loaders made this way?
    If I understand you correctly, the Lyman rifles - at least the Great Plains Rifles - are made this way. It makes cleaning problematic, but seems to work well enough otherwise.
    'I have a feeling we're not in Kansas any more, Toto!' Dorothy, in The Wizard of Oz.

  20. #40
    Boolit Man Dirty30's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Wyoming
    Posts
    98
    I just read that issue of Muzzleloader with the Simon Kenton article in it! Getting caught up on back issues.
    If you're gonna shoot shoot, don't talk.

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check