single action army clone

[RyanJames170]

So I was curious what people feel the Italian made single action army’s in 45 colt can handle for pressure, I only ask because SAMI lists 14,000 PSI how ever CIP lists 16,000 PSI and I’ve seen 45ACP models for sale. And this made me wonder as 45 acp is listed at 21,000 psi and if the guns were that week why would they chamber them for 45 acp

[M-Tecs]

SAAMI ammo recommendations are based on the weakest firearms commonly in use. That would be the iron blackpowder frame 1873 Colts. Todays 1873's are made form much better materials. Some also have increased cylinders size by .020" or .030".

They also chamber them in 44 Magnum.

https://www.guns.com/news/2019/02/13...y-pietta-video

https://www.traditionsfirearms.com/p...ened-sat73-800

https://www.uberti-usa.com/cartridge...1873-cattleman

https://www.impactguns.com/revolvers...4999494-349322

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/...action-series/

[racepres]

They also chamber them in 44 Magnum.

Speaks Volumes... no added info necessary!!!

[Green Frog]

I have a Uberti SAA 45 Colt sold by Taylor as their "Smokewagon" model with Taylor Tuning. I mostly shoot it with wax bullets driven by shotgun primers (Cowboy Fast Draw) but wouldn't hesitate to shoot any load recommended for the strongest revolvers chambered for 45 Colt. It has the advantages of the old SAA basic design supplemented by modern steel. OTOH, I wouldn't try to get 44 mag performance out of it!

Froggie

[M-Tecs]

) but wouldn't hesitate to shoot any load recommended for the strongest revolvers chambered for 45 Colt. It has the advantages of the old SAA basic design supplemented by modern steel.

Some of the hot loads specifically for the strongest 45 Colts will grenade 1873 clones.

Lots of "recommend loads" full size Ruger Blackhawks in the 34,000 PSI range. With the Redhawks and other some are loading the 45 Colts to the 45,000 to 50,000 PSI range.

https://singleactions.proboards.com/...rking-pressure

[35 Whelen]

It's become fairly common knowledge that Uberti's 1873 Single Actions in 45 Colt will handle loads in the 21-23K psi range, same as Ruger's New Vaquero. As the OP mentioned, they are chambered in 45 ACP whose SAAMI chamber pressure is 21K psi.

35W

[dogdoc]

Brian Pearce in Handloader magazine has some good commentary on this in his pet load column . I think it is in the one on +p 45 colt. I don’t have it in front of me but google is your friend.

[DougGuy]

SAAMI ammo recommendations are based on the weakest firearms commonly in use. That would be the iron blackpowder frame 1873 Colts.

SAAMI specs for original 45 Colt is for smokeless powder Colts. Push-pin Colts afaik. It is not recommended to use ANY smokeless powder loads in an old iron frame/black powder Colt. Many years ago there was much discussion on these guns and smokeless powder, there was a LOT of cautionary articles in the gun rags, and a lot of grenaded Colts.

I thought the early Italian clones to be of lacking quality in their metallurgy regardless of how well they fit the grips. Nowdays they are typically rated for 45ACP+P pressure of 23kpsi *IF* they are chambered in 45ACP. This would make the 45 Colt guns capable of the same pressure.

[shooting on a shoestring]

My 2 cents and 2 points:
First, not all Italian revolvers have the same metallurgy or specs. My FEELING is there was more variation in the earlier Italian revolvers. No scientific data to support it though. I would NOT extrapolate that just because one maker took an order from one distributor to make a run of 44 Magnum SAA clones, that all SAA clones have that metallurgy and heat treatment. I doubt they do. But, no data to support it.

Second, just because a revolver can keep from blowing up the first time it’s given a heavy load doesn’t mean the revolver will stand up to that for multiple heavy loads. If the cylinder is overly stressed, it will eventually fail. Maybe even with a lesser load after stress fractures have migrated. And of course frame stretching is how overly stressed revolvers most frequently display abuse.

I get that there’s no benefit in keeping pressure way below the capabilities of a particular revolver. But same is true for exceeding the capabilities. Problem is the only guidance is SAAMI specs, reloading manuals, people’s experience and worst of all…..opinions. I just expressed my opinion. No supporting data other than I own a some Italian revolvers, load for them and haven’t blown them up or shot them loose. Hope you do likewise.

[35 Whelen]

My 2 cents and 2 points:
First, not all Italian revolvers have the same metallurgy or specs. My FEELING is there was more variation in the earlier Italian revolvers. No scientific data to support it though. I would NOT extrapolate that just because one maker took an order from one distributor to make a run of 44 Magnum SAA clones, that all SAA clones have that metallurgy and heat treatment. I doubt they do. But, no data to support it.

Second, just because a revolver can keep from blowing up the first time it’s given a heavy load doesn’t mean the revolver will stand up to that for multiple heavy loads. If the cylinder is overly stressed, it will eventually fail. Maybe even with a lesser load after stress fractures have migrated. And of course frame stretching is how overly stressed revolvers most frequently display abuse.

I get that there’s no benefit in keeping pressure way below the capabilities of a particular revolver. But same is true for exceeding the capabilities. Problem is the only guidance is SAAMI specs, reloading manuals, people’s experience and worst of all…..opinions. I just expressed my opinion. No supporting data other than I own a some Italian revolvers, load for them and haven’t blown them up or shot them loose. Hope you do likewise.

I'm not aware of any Italian "clones" chambered in .44 Magnum. All of those I've seen are visibly larger in size than a Colt SAA and reproductions thereof.

Brian Pearce has addressed this subject a few times in the last few years, most recently within the last couple of issues of Handloader magazine. He states that Uberti's built/imported since 1990 are of the quality and metallurgy to handle Tier II 45 Colt loads. As already mentioned, if they're good to go with 45 ACP +P loads, why would it be any different with 45 Colt loads in the same pressure range?

EDIT-

Found one of the articles. In the Feb. issue of Handloader, of a current production Cimarron (Uberti) Model P in 45 Colt-

One significant departure of Cimarron/Uberti Model P revolvers when compared with the Colt SAA is the cylinder and frame size. The Colt cylinder measures 1.650 inches outside diameter, while the Model P measures 1.670 inches. The distance from the axis of the bore to the center of the base pin remains the same. This increases the outside chamber walls 0.010 inch, which adds significant strength over the locking bolt notches, the weak link in SAA revolver design. Combined with high tensile chrome-moly steel, this revolver can easily digest loads that generate 21,000 psi (the same as the .45 ACP).

35W

[RyanJames170]

That is good to know, that they can Handel the 21,000 psi

[Der Gebirgsjager]

My 2 cents and 2 points:
First, not all Italian revolvers have the same metallurgy or specs. My FEELING is there was more variation in the earlier Italian revolvers. No scientific data to support it though. I would NOT extrapolate that just because one maker took an order from one distributor to make a run of 44 Magnum SAA clones, that all SAA clones have that metallurgy and heat treatment. I doubt they do. But, no data to support it.

Second, just because a revolver can keep from blowing up the first time it’s given a heavy load doesn’t mean the revolver will stand up to that for multiple heavy loads. If the cylinder is overly stressed, it will eventually fail. Maybe even with a lesser load after stress fractures have migrated. And of course frame stretching is how overly stressed revolvers most frequently display abuse.

I get that there’s no benefit in keeping pressure way below the capabilities of a particular revolver. But same is true for exceeding the capabilities. Problem is the only guidance is SAAMI specs, reloading manuals, people’s experience and worst of all…..opinions. I just expressed my opinion. No supporting data other than I own a some Italian revolvers, load for them and haven’t blown them up or shot them loose. Hope you do likewise.

I like, and second your opinion!

DG

[gc45]

35 Whelan - Thanks for your post, very good to here. Think I read Brian's article as well but had forgotten it.
I may get an Italian clone 44 Special revolver because our American gun makers seen to care less these days what they make available and I am tired of waiting plus I refuse to pay Gunbroker prices; easy to see that America is happy to hand over firearm production to the Europeans.

[35 Whelen]

35 Whelan - Thanks for your post, very good to here. Think I read Brian's article as well but had forgotten it.
I may get an Italian clone 44 Special revolver because our American gun makers seen to care less these days what they make available and I am tired of waiting plus I refuse to pay Gunbroker prices; easy to see that America is happy to hand over firearm production to the Europeans.

I've owned two 3rd Generation Colt SAA's in .44 Special's, a 4 3/4" and a 5 1/2". I never even fired them. The actions were oversprung and gritty and they were worth more to a collector than to a shooter like myself. I have owned three Uberti .44 Special's for quite a few years now. An older 4 3/4", a 2011 Model P 5 1/2" and a 2018 Flat Top Target 7 1/2". They are all superbly accurate out to 100 yds. and are easy to load for. I also own several other Uberti's in .357 and 45 Colt and they're equally as well built and accurate.

35W

[DougGuy]

I've owned two 3rd Generation Colt SAA's in .44 Special's, a 4 3/4" and a 5 1/2". I never even fired them. The actions were oversprung and gritty and they were worth more to a collector than to a shooter like myself. I have owned three Uberti .44 Special's for quite a few years now. An older 4 3/4", a 2011 Model P 5 1/2" and a 2018 Flat Top Target 7 1/2". They are all superbly accurate out to 100 yds. and are easy to load for. I also own several other Uberti's in .357 and 45 Colt and they're equally as well built and accurate.

35W

Generally the Uberti guns are tighter than any off the shelf Ruger, so they have the potential to be 100yd guns, they fall into the same category of improvements as the Rugers, hone and uniform the cylinder throats, cut a nice forcing cone, and size to the throats. Very basic improvements but easily appreciated once at the range. The triggers are more often than not very liveable.

[M-Tecs]

SAAMI specs for original 45 Colt is for smokeless powder Colts. Push-pin Colts afaik. It is not recommended to use ANY smokeless powder loads in an old iron frame/black powder Colt. Many years ago there was much discussion on these guns and smokeless powder, there was a LOT of cautionary articles in the gun rags, and a lot of grenaded Colts.

Colt did not warranty the 1873's until 1900 or 1901 depending on the source. The push-pin was available for several years before Colt warrantied the 1873's for smokeless. Per R. L. Wilson's book "COLT An American Legend" the transverse base pin lock was added in 1892 and serial # 144,000 That is much sooner than the smokeless powder guns which were not introduced until 1900. Colt started stamping a smokeless proofed in 1900 or 1901.

What Colt did was well before SAAMI inception in 1926. This is total production numbers of all calibers but in 1926 2/3's of the Colts produced were before Colt warrantied the 1873 for smokeless. SAAMI would have been aware of that the majority of the most commonly used 45 Colt firearms not warranted by Colt for smokeless.

From day one SAAMI recommend 14,000 CUP/PSI as safe in all 45 Colt firearms.

Same for the 45/70 where 28,000 CUP/PSI are the same. Lyman recommends 18,000, some loading manuals recommend 21,000 and some others use the SAAMI recommendation of 28,000 CUP/PSI as Trapdoor safe.

Historically the 14,000 CUP/PSI may have been overly optimistic for the early 1873's. By today's standards it is considered to be unsafe to use 14,000 CUP/PSI loads in the non-proofed Colt 1873's.

Reality is very few (if any) of the old Colts have not been fired with smokeless loads at some point in their life. Some survived others didn't.

[Outpost75]

Also the advised that the SAAMI MAP is not the machine loading limit, but is the maximum statistical individual pressure, i.e. the sample average plus 3 standard deviations. Typical sample averages for standard .45 ACP are 17,500-18,500 psi. and 19,500- 20,500 for +P.

[Thundermaker]

I see some people presenting CUP and PSI as the same thing. They're not. Not remotely. 14,000 CUP is roughly 21,000psi.

Why hotrod the cartridge? There are 14,000 psi loads in my manuals that will push a 255gr bullet at 1,000fps. If you can't kill it with that, it'll live forever.

[M-Tecs]

I see some people presenting CUP and PSI as the same thing. They're not. Not remotely. 14,000 CUP is roughly 21,000psi.

Why hotrod the cartridge? There are 14,000 psi loads in my manuals that will push a 255gr bullet at 1,000fps. If you can't kill it with that, it'll live forever.

SAAMI doesn't agree in the case of the 45 Colt (14,000 CUP/PSI) and the 45/70 (28,000 CUP/PSI). There might be more but these are the only two instances that I am aware of that CUP and PSI are the same.

https://saami.org/wp-content/uploads...12-13-2022.pdf

page 20

Attachment 312791

Correlating PSI and CUP
https://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

[barnetmill]

I'....................
EDIT-

Found one of the articles. In the Feb. issue of Handloader, of a current production Cimarron (Uberti) Model P in 45 Colt-

One significant departure of Cimarron/Uberti Model P revolvers when compared with the Colt SAA is the cylinder and frame size. The Colt cylinder measures 1.650 inches outside diameter, while the Model P measures 1.670 inches. The distance from the axis of the bore to the center of the base pin remains the same. This increases the outside chamber walls 0.010 inch, which adds significant strength over the locking bolt notches, the weak link in SAA revolver design. Combined with high tensile chrome-moly steel, this revolver can easily digest loads that generate 21,000 psi (the same as the .45 ACP).

35W

I always thought that the most stressed part of a revolver cylinder was the end of the cylinder where the bullets jumps the gap into barrel.
But the metal is thinnest for sure over the cylinder bolt notches.