When I look at my old Speer number 10 manual I notice in the 357 magnum section that they list powder charges a good bit higher than todays manuals. They say the top loads are just under 46000 cup. I never blew up any of my Smiths or Rugers up back in the day and. I used a lot of different loads from that manual. I bet some of those top loads will be greater than 35000 psi of measured on modern piezo equipment hence they are toned down today.
I have a number 9 manual and a number 14 manual.
158 grain and 2400 6 inch barrel
#9 14.7 grain. 1304 fps
#14 14.8 grain. 1265 fps
H110
#9. 17.5. 1272 fps
#14. 15.5 1217 fps
Different lots of primers, powder, different designs of bullets and a Security Six for #9 and a S&W M19 for #14.
I also have a 45th edition of Lyman (1970) and a 50th edition (2016).
158 grain jacketed with 2400.
45th. 15.0 grains
50th. 14.9 grains.
Different primers, cases and bullets used between the two.
You would be correct. Speer #14 states; "The industry Maximum average pressure for the 357 Magnum is 35,000 psi. These loads do not exceed that level." Note that say they do not "exceed", does not say they are at that level.Originally Posted by dogdoc
In #14 with the 158 SP and #9 powder 13.7 gr is the max listed load. With 2400 powder #14 lists 14.8 gr as a max load. With a 358156 cast bullet I've measured the psi with 14.5 gr Alliant 2400 at 34,200 psi.
You say "toned down", I say dumbed down.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
That is only half a grain more than Lyman #50. Could be different primers or different lot of primers and different lot of powder, cases could be different.
Those are the variables.....
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
Ammo for sale today:
Federal American Eagle Ammunition 357 Magnum 158 Grain Jacketed Soft Point 1240 fps.
Remington High Terminal Performance (HTP) Ammunition 357 Magnum 158 Grain Semi-Jacketed Hollow Point Velocity 1235 FPS, seems to me to be pretty weak (High Terminal Performance, bah!) compared too:
Listed in Appendix 5 of Firearms Encyclopedia by Nonte copyright 1973, 357 Magnum 158 Grain Jacketed Soft Point Velocity 1450 FPS.
or
Hodgdon's 2016 annual manual, 357 Magnum 158 gr. HDY XTP 16.7 gr H110 velocity 1591 fps 40,700 CUP 10 inch barrel.
Lyman cast bullet handbook lists 1460 fps from a 4 inch vented barrel with 18.3 gr. of H110 and a 158 gr. cast bullet 40,100 CUP.
I already said I think an extra 100 fps in a .357 is a meaningful difference and here we are talking about twice that.
We ain't talking hammers.
Oh, not all sledgehammers are the same weight.
For hunting or self-defense, if you are using a .357 mag. why would you use ammo that is underperforming by 200 fps. Why are manufacturers selling you weak ammo?
How come Buffalo Bore is this much hotter than Remington and Federal.
Heavy 357 Magnum Ammo 158 gr. J.H.C. @ 1,475 fps / M.E. 763 ft lbs
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Loads of Blue Dot mentioned here are for information only. I am not recommending them.
About 30 years ago when I picked up my Ruger Security Six 357 Magnum revolver with 6" barrel I was wanting to duplicate the Winchester 125 gr JHP factory load which ran 1490 fps out of the Ruger. I had 500 of the Winchester 125 JHP bullets. In an older manual a max load of 16.4 gr of Blue Dot was given. I started at 14 gr and worked up to 16.4 gr. At 16.4 gr there was no sign of excessive pressure as extraction was normal. Accuracy was excellent and the velocity was 1700 fps....and they were death and destruction on rock chucks, jack rabbits and coyote. However, on deer they were a bit destructive. After shooting all 500 of the Winchester bullets up I switched Hornady 125 XTPs (the FP not the HPs). They ran at the same velocity, accuracy was excellent, they performed well on varmints and weren't nearly as destructive on deer. I went along fat dumb and happy with that load ....then I got the Oeler M43 PBL and was able to measure the pressure......
The Winchester factory 125 JHP load ran 1800 fps at 28,000+ psi out of my Contender test barrel (7.94"). The 16.4 gr load of Blue Dot under the 125 XTP ran 1950 fps out of the Contender test barrel at 42,200 psi.....!!!! SAAMI's proof MAP for the 357 Magnum is 47,000 psi (60,500 CUP). Note; In my pressure testing of Blue Dot under the 125 gr jacketed bullets I got no indication of pressure spiking.
I have "dumbed down" that load of Blue Dot under the 125 gr XTP bullet but it still exceeds the SAAMI MAP but My Ruger Security Six is alive and well with it. Just wish I could get more of the old Winchester 125 JHPs, especially for what I got them for back then.....
My current 2400 and Blue Dot loads with the 358156 cast bullet are just under the SAAMI MAP. The SAAMI MAP wasn't really my selection criteria, accuracy and a comfortable magnum level load for use in the Security Six was. It's not "dumbed down" as they exceed all factory 158 loads in velocity by 150- 200 fps. The old 15.5+ gr load of 2400 under the 358156 waltzes right up there in pressure above the SAAMI MAP but does push 1450 fps +/- out of the 6" Ruger. That's just like the old original 357 Magnum was supposed to do.......
Last edited by Larry Gibson; 04-09-2023 at 11:11 AM.
Larry Gibson
“Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
― Nikola Tesla
Don't forget that Lyman in their 1970 #45th manual tested Remington 158 gr. Lead FL at 1388 fps from a 5 inch M27 Smith.
That will help your case too.
Larry,
Just curious. What does the pressure curve look like for Blue Dot compared to something like 2400?
I still like BD for heavy .357 and even .45ACP loads.
I read a handloader article from Brian Pearce and he lab tested some factory 1935ish era spec loads and they were in the 47k psi range. Those being used in the big n-frame had a lot of steel surrounding the chambers. I probably wouldn't feel comfortable shooting those in a pocket rocket revolver.
One of the most interesting articles I read with regards to high pressure 357s was John Taffin's 353 casull setup. The ballistics he was getting compelled me enough to have an oversized cylinder added to my blackhawk to see what i could get out of it. With the new cylinder I'm gained extra speed from 3 things, tighter tolerances in the revolver, being able to load past 1.8" OAL and extra pressure if desired. Loading long allows 180g bullets to be seated to the point they take up less space in the case than a 125g bullet at saami spec length. I won't put out specific load data but I got sticky extraction with 180s in the 1800fps (1300lbs of energy at that level) range from a 6.5" barrel which is well beyond anything I need to with a 357. Most likely in the 60-70k psi range too at that level.
Keeping 180s in the 16-1700fps range I get quite a few loads out of the cases and they fall right out of the chambers. Accuracy is much better to boot vs the max sticky level loads too.
After needing some work done on my model 28-2, I have backed down my loads a bit. Call me a pansy or a snowflake, I'm fine with that.
Despite all that's been written here, chamber pressure isn't everything. Recoil forces probably wear more on the revolver. 500 rounds of 125 grain bullet ammo at 35kpsi is not at all equal to 500 rounds of 158 grain ammo at 35kpsi, let alone 180 grain ammo at the same pressure. Anyone who has fired these different types of ammo knows there's a huge difference in recoil. The gun feels that recoil too.
The folks who are knowledgeable enough to work on vintage S&W revolvers is shrinking quickly. And yes, at this point I definitely call my 28-2 "vintage".
In the 1980s when parts and expertise was widely available, it was no big deal to recondition a revolver for end shake or out of time. These days not so much.
The fastest and most concerning damage I've seen in 357 Mag revolvers is flame cutting. The 110 grain and 125 grain jacketed bullets coupled with slow powders are by far the worst offenders.
Lil' Gun burns very hot and it appears to be the worst offender. It erodes top straps and forcing cones very quickly.
The early silhouette shooter learned a steady diet of heavy 44 Mag loads was not good for the N frame model 29's. The 29's would not stand up to several years' worth of silhouette matches without loosening up. Needing end shake and time adjustments around 3,000 heavy loads was common.
Last edited by M-Tecs; 04-22-2023 at 05:07 AM.
2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
"Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
– Amber Veal
"The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
- Wayne Dyer
No doubt recoil is a big factor in loosening a revolver.
Yup Yup... Previous to being Protected from Ourselves!!!!That's just like the old original 357 Magnum was supposed to do.......
BTW, I also Never share my BlueDot load that I use for the Contender!!!
After being an observer of people for many years I have learned that many need protecting from themselves.
No doubt in my mind at all.
Last edited by 44MAG#1; 04-23-2023 at 07:32 AM.
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