S.e.e. ??

[racepres]

Maybe you need faster burn rate quickness rifle gun powders for safety with reduced loads.

3031 and 4227 have been very reasonable and predictable for me in 308 and 30-06.

You sir are absolutely correct... this was Not intentionally a reduced load...it was supposed to be a book starting load... Operator Error is the root cause of the entire event, and this aftermath as well!!!
I'm beginning to believe I may should have kept this whole mess to myself, as I did Not intend to cause Drama... My Intent was to warn folks to remain diligent in your reloading procedures...What I did Not realize is that I may have caused people to feel somehow threatened, or even accused!!! Accidents Happen, be Careful Out There.

[Recycled bullet]

You don't have any control over the thoughts or actions of others. If someone else is some how triggered by your sharing your thoughts or opinions or actions that's on them, that's not on you.

If I did not want to read your post I would just look some place else.

Thanks for sharing, that I may learn from what happened to you, to try to avoid that happening to me.

[Larry Gibson]

I agree most powders would be difficult if not impossible to detonate. However, high NG powders like Bullseye will most certainly detonate under the right circumstance.

Relative to 'wave theory', just to be clear, I think most reasonable individuals would agree that wave theory as a science is well established. Norma/Bofors writeup on powder discusses the 'see' phenomenon and mentions pressure wave as a factor. I mentioned this earlier in this thread; when a cartridge fires, or for that matter a primer only, a pressure wave travels up the barrel, reflects off the end of the barrel (that is what waves do when there is impedance discontinuity) and travel back to source. It isn't all that difficult to see (no pun intended) how a pressure wave could make a bad situation (plugged bore and smoldering powder) into a catastrophic situation. The "wave theory" has never been disproven.

As I stated in cartridges smokeless powders do not detonate, that includes Bullseye. In "special circumstances" some do but not in cartridges.

The "wave theory" causing hign pressure excursions/detonations in cartridges is just a theory which has never been proven. The Norma/Bofors writeup was simply that, a writeup based on assumptions that have since been disproven when the real cause of S.E.E was discovered and easily replicated, I.E. proven. I'm not saying the wave theory is incorrect in theory but as it relates to a high pressure/S.E.E. excursion in a cartridge it is incorrect.

[Larry Gibson]

You sir are absolutely correct... this was Not intentionally a reduced load...it was supposed to be a book starting load... Operator Error is the root cause of the entire event, and this aftermath as well!!!
I'm beginning to believe I may should have kept this whole mess to myself, as I did Not intend to cause Drama... My Intent was to warn folks to remain diligent in your reloading procedures...What I did Not realize is that I may have caused people to feel somehow threatened, or even accused!!! Accidents Happen, be Careful Out There.

I appreciate you bring this incident to the forum. I also appreciate your honesty in reporting it and accepting your own responsibility in this incident. Your warning is well taken and should be listened to by others. We all can make mistakes and sometimes we get away with them. We should, hopefully, learn from not only others mistakes but our own also.

Thanks again,

[TNsailorman]

I totally agree with Larry on this. If we don't admit our mistakes, we are doomed to repeat them. If we care about the people we are around, we need to share our mistakes with them and maybe, just maybe, we can save them some grief or injury. No need for to feel bad or apologise. james

[Hannibal]

You sir are absolutely correct... this was Not intentionally a reduced load...it was supposed to be a book starting load... Operator Error is the root cause of the entire event, and this aftermath as well!!!
I'm beginning to believe I may should have kept this whole mess to myself, as I did Not intend to cause Drama... My Intent was to warn folks to remain diligent in your reloading procedures...What I did Not realize is that I may have caused people to feel somehow threatened, or even accused!!! Accidents Happen, be Careful Out There.

As others have posted I'm glad that you started this thread. No one ever learns anything if everything goes perfectly. Mistakes are how we learn where the limits are and the truly smart ones will learn from your experience.

Again, thanks to you.

[racepres]

Thanks you Guys... I am Not Butt Hurt anymore!!! LOL
I really did want to share in hopes this is Not repeated...especially by Me of course!!!!!

[unique]

I studied Exhaust system for internal combustion engines diligently.. my quection in this regard is, "how did yer Wave get past the Boolit to reach the Muzzle??" if it was contained by the case my input would be that the wave sure was a Short one!!! But.. I did Not study Ballistics!!

Ah, a great question. The wave is not traveling through the bore. The wave is traveling through the metal of the barrel. It is well known that a barrel vibrates when fired. Very similar to taking a piece of rope and giving it a good snap.

That vibration is a wave traveling the length of the barrel. This is why barrel bedding makes a difference. If you made the barrel really long the wave would die out before reflecting (again think about a really long rope which you snap). There are more complexities to this as you can get a wave reflection right near the cartridge as well but trying to keep this simple.

Anyway, a wave will reflect off the end of barrel and back to the source; this is not conjecture but well established. Now a partial of that wave passes through the metal bullet to the powder packed next to the bullet and still smoldering. Is this when 'see' happens? Maybe.

The possibility of wave reflection near the cartridge exists and would likely involve a much stronger pressure wave so maybe 'see' happens under this condition. (I would explain but that would take couple more paragraphs of wave transmission theory and everyone will glaze over if they haven't already).

Can a 'see' happen without a pressure wave? Maybe. I wouldn't rule out any of these possibilities as there are a lot of nuances that occur when cartridge is fired. They happen whether we recognize them or not.

[racepres]

Ah, a great question. The wave is not traveling through the bore. The wave is traveling through the metal of the barrel. It is well known that a barrel vibrates when fired. Very similar to taking a piece of rope and giving it a good snap.

That vibration is a wave traveling the length of the barrel. This is why barrel bedding makes a difference. If you made the barrel really long the wave would die out before reflecting (again think about a really long rope which you snap). There are more complexities to this as you can get a wave reflection right near the cartridge as well but trying to keep this simple.

Anyway, a wave will reflect off the end of barrel and back to the source; this is not conjecture but well established. Now a partial of that wave passes through the metal bullet to the powder packed next to the bullet and still smoldering. Is this when 'see' happens? Maybe.

The possibility of wave reflection near the cartridge exists and would likely involve a much stronger pressure wave so maybe 'see' happens under this condition. (I would explain but that would take couple more paragraphs of wave transmission theory and everyone will glaze over if they haven't already).

Can a 'see' happen without a pressure wave? Maybe. I wouldn't rule out any of these possibilities as there are a lot of nuances that occur when cartridge is fired. They happen whether we recognize them or not.

Pretty Complicated...Extremely hard to Verify and/or Quantify... With IC Exhaust...testing the Theory is King!!! No Worky??? No Likey!!!!

[super6]

I appreciate your humor, No worky No likey. LoL. I will use those terms again.

[unique]

Pretty Complicated...Extremely hard to Verify and/or Quantify... With IC Exhaust...testing the Theory is King!!! No Worky??? No Likey!!!!

Well I now better understand the root of your difficulties.

[Hannibal]

Well I now better understand the root of your difficulties.

Not sure what this means?

I try things for myself. If they don't work for me then I don't keep trying the same thing and expect the results to change.

No worky no likey. Sums it up well with a bit of humor added.

You no likey?

[racepres]

Well I now better understand the root of your difficulties.

No, You would need to see the Pile of Exhaust systems under my bench, to really understand!!!

[Shiloh]

Was gonna put this under case forming...But... Not Funny
documented to my satisfaction. I inadvertently put 26 grains of W748 instead of 36gr. into the 8X57 with 170gr Boolit
Double checked the charge in fact... physically, Not the Book ... Obviously
If yer gonna be Dumb...ya better be Tough...Or, Use a 98 Mauser.. Only My Pride, and Confidence in my Old Feeble Mind, were Shaken....Oh...And Nerves!!!!
Only thing I can come up with is S.E.E. Powder was definitely W748...charge was double Checked (even if Wrong).. old Mauser is Not any Worse for Wear!!!!
I never had anything like that, and been reloading since 1979 or so...
Be Careful You Old Farts!!!!... (maybe younger guys too)
Almost too embarrassing to Share... But... gettin old is about Sharing...
Attachment 311302

Your fortunate it was a Mauser.
My guess is this was a good education for you. Stay safe.

Shiloh