30-06 FL Sizing Die Problems

[caseyboy]

Hi All,
I replaced my 30-06 dies with a used RCBS die set. I spent a bunch of time over Christmas working up a couple hundred pieces of Winchester brass. Sized, flash hole debarred, neck turned, etc. They looked good and chambered easily. Loaded up fifty with Lyman 311299 and headed up to the range. I had failure to fire on about a third of them. Looked like light pin strikes. They would fire if I recocked and fired again. Thought the bolt must be dirty and disassembled and cleaned it a5 home. Next trip to the range, the same thing. I noticed that some of the primers had backed out a bit. My next thought was a headspace issue. On closer inspection of the fl sizing die, this is what I discovered.
The previous owner ground off some of the die body length. So all the brass I prepped has the shoulders set back too far. This explains the misfires.

I hope to save all the brass I prepared by hopefully fireforming them back into place. The idea I have is to expand the neck with a .321 expander ball and then resize about 3/4 of the neck with the 30-06 die leaving a thicker neck at the shoulder junction the force the case back against the bolt face. Kind of like this.
This will chamber in my rifle, but the bolt is somewhat stiff to close. Think this will work?

[beshears]

yes

[racepres]

Hi All,
I replaced my 30-06 dies with a used RCBS die set. I spent a bunch of time over Christmas working up a couple hundred pieces of Winchester brass. Sized, flash hole debarred, neck turned, etc. They looked good and chambered easily. Loaded up fifty with Lyman 311299 and headed up to the range. I had failure to fire on about a third of them. Looked like light pin strikes. They would fire if I recocked and fired again. Thought the bolt must be dirty and disassembled and cleaned it a5 home. Next trip to the range, the same thing. I noticed that some of the primers had backed out a bit. My next thought was a headspace issue. On closer inspection of the fl sizing die, this is what I discovered.
The previous owner ground off some of the die body length. So all the brass I prepped has the shoulders set back too far. This explains the misfires.

I hope to save all the brass I prepared by hopefully fireforming them back into place. The idea I have is to expand the neck with a .321 expander ball and then resize about 3/4 of the neck with the 30-06 die leaving a thicker neck at the shoulder junction the force the case back against the bolt face. Kind of like this.
This will chamber in my rifle, but the bolt is somewhat stiff to close. Think this will work?

Reason I rarely FL size

[BLAHUT]

If you are shooting all this brass in the same gun you may only need to neck size..

[1006]

Your plan sounds like it will work. I would do it differently, but cannot be sure my way is any better.

I would use a bullet puller to reduce the seating depth to the extent that the bullet was loaded long enough to push into the rifling. This will hold the brass firmly against the breach face. The bolt will need to be “encouraged” to close.When fired, the shoulder will blow back out. You might be able to avoid pulling the bullets completely apart. I have used this method to blow the shoulder forward on 300BLK.

[Wayne Smith]

Yup, that will work too, as long as you are not near a maximum load. Since you are shooting cast, I hope you are not near max!

[Polymath]

Sounds like the guy was trying to make a SMALL BASE DIE SET - GROUP A
. https://www.rcbs.com/dies-and-shell-...idges/777.html

I have a set and they are more for semi-autos. They size the base of the case a smidgeon more than regular dies. I place a thin washer on top of the shell holder to space it properly for bolt actions. I was jamming the cases, tearing rims until I realized what was happening.

[405grain]

Having the dies shortened like this, and pushing the shoulder back, probably created too much headspace. Before you reload those fired cases I'd recommend that you take a paper clip and bend it into a feeler tool to reach inside the case to check if there's any thinning of the case walls just ahead of the case head. An incipient case head separation could be dangerous, so you should check your cases to be on the safe side. If there's a bright ring around the outside of the case above of the case head, that's an indicator that those cases might fail if they're reloaded. Way better to be safe than sorry.

You're going to do what you choose, but if it we're me I'd fling those defective used dies into the trash and buy a brand new set. The increased cost would be offset by the peace of mind.

[M-Tecs]

Using a RCBS Precision Case Mic or a Hornady case length comparator would have eliminated this from happening. The RCBS Precision Case Mic's can be found on ebay used for under $30. No need to replace the die's if you set the shoulder setback to whatever you want. I normally set them for .002" shoulder bump.

https://www.personaldefenseworld.com...eadspace-oals/

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ure-your-bump/

[racepres]

Having the dies shortened like this, and pushing the shoulder back, probably created too much headspace. Before you reload those fired cases I'd recommend that you take a paper clip and bend it into a feeler tool to reach inside the case to check if there's any thinning of the case walls just ahead of the case head. An incipient case head separation could be dangerous, so you should check your cases to be on the safe side. If there's a bright ring around the outside of the case above of the case head, that's an indicator that those cases might fail if they're reloaded. Way better to be safe than sorry.

You're going to do what you choose, but if it we're me I'd fling those defective used dies into the trash and buy a brand new set. The increased cost would be offset by the peace of mind.

Cases are doubtfully defective... they were Overworked, and Shoulder Pushed Back... Not gonna be any insipient Head separation until they are Fired, when they stretch back to fill the chamber. The Plan to somehow hold the case against the bolt face, then go ahead and fire...Is a Good One...
If they had been loaded and fired and then resized again... that is when Case head separation rears its ugly head... Full length resizing is the Root Cause... All Chambers are Not equal... even SAAMI, allows Tolerances
Precision Shooters? Do Not..... No not only Precision Shooters...Lets say mindful Reloaders

[Larry Gibson]

If your rifle has a plunger ejector removing it from the bolt to fire form the cases will help a good amount as it will not be pushing the case forward.

You might also try the simple expedient of seating the bullets out so there is a "jam" fit into leade/rifling to hlod the case back against the bolt face.

[Rapier]

Easy peasy, use the cast bullets to fire form, just pull the bullet out a bit, until they are forced into the lands by the bolt closure. Fire form, done and done. Reset your dies to neck size just to the fired case's shoulder.

The false shoulder is one way to fire form, then a bullet seated out to hold the base against the bolt face is another perfectly acceptable way to fire form. Fire forming will correct your short sholder length. You can insure the fire form by lubing each case before you fire it.

[TurnipEaterDown]

Several good comments on forming the case to chamber, and measuring fired cases to set the dies properly, are above.

I would add: I have many times purposefully oiled the exterior of cases when forming to give a better chance of ensuring the case is blowing out the shoulder and not stretching at the web or half way down the body (Yes, I have had cases grab in the front half of chamber when not against the bolt face and stretch the case wall out in a narrow section well forward of the web as often seen when the case gets set back under pressure).

Most (I would argue, All properly designed) firearms do not rely on the case walls grabbing to reduce bolt thrust to safe levels. So, Particularly when using a lighter / cast load to form, oiling the exterior of the case is just reasonable action to make sure the case forms easily and grabs less in any trouble spots.
This practice really helped me recently when dealing with a pitted chamber. After the case is the right length base to shoulder, it doesn't matter where it grabs, stretching should be almost nonexistent on subsequent shots as long as the case-chamber fit is held to 0.001-0.002".

[Soundguy]

Sounds like the guy was trying to make a SMALL BASE DIE SET - GROUP A
. https://www.rcbs.com/dies-and-shell-...idges/777.html

I have a set and they are more for semi-autos. They size the base of the case a smidgeon more than regular dies. I place a thin washer on top of the shell holder to space it properly for bolt actions. I was jamming the cases, tearing rims until I realized what was happening.

I agree... someone was trying to get a little more sizing.. But the op.. could have still set up his dies correctly... just with the shell holder off the base of the die.. just adjust it for top of travel.

[TNsailorman]

Like some posters have said already, loading a lead bullet long enough to push into the rifling a bit will hold the case against the bolt face in the firing sequence. I did this a few times many years ago myself and it works; at least for me. The thing that jumped off the page on my first read was that the seller of the dies should have mentioned on his advertisement that he had shortened the die or that it had been shortened. To me at least, that puts him into an enethical catagory if he falied to do so. Anyone selling reloading equipment, used or otherwise, should disclose any and all alterations made to the equipment. my .02 anyway, james

[stubshaft]

I whole heartedly agree with the others in either using a false shoulder or seating the bullet out to adjust headspace. I would also anneal the vases to insure that the shoulder is soft enough to form properly.

[15meter]

Like some posters have said already, loading a lead bullet long enough to push into the rifling a bit will hold the case against the bolt face in the firing sequence. I did this a few times many years ago myself and it works; at least for me. The thing that jumped off the page on my first read was that the seller of the dies should have mentioned on his advertisement that he had shortened the die or that it had been shortened. To me at least, that puts him into an enethical catagory if he falied to do so. Anyone selling reloading equipment, used or otherwise, should disclose any and all alterations made to the equipment. my .02 anyway, james

Unfortunately sometimes you don't know there's an issue. A fair amount of used reloading equipment crosses my bench. I keep what I like and peddle the rest. I currently have a couple of die sets up for sale. I looked them over pretty well before listing but I'm not sure that I'd notice a bottom ground off like that.

[georgerkahn]

Unfortunately sometimes you don't know there's an issue. A fair amount of used reloading equipment crosses my bench. I keep what I like and peddle the rest. I currently have a couple of die sets up for sale. I looked them over pretty well before listing but I'm not sure that I'd notice a bottom ground off like that.

15meter and James -- a few years back I purchased -- HIGH! price -- an L. E. Wilson holder for .30 Remington. Failure with use! I contacted L. E. Wilson vis, "what's up?" to learn (MY embarrassment!) that a previous owner PROFESSIONALLY machined it for ??? whatever ??? purpose(s). Not only was I out a lot coin for the tool, but destroyed a few hard-to-find cases as well! Since, I've reckoned it's worth the extra few pennies to buy ONLY new -- if, for nothing else, the guaranteed SAAMI spec's on that I'm buying... and, a warranty.
geo

[Jedman]

Sorta related, I have a rifle in 8 x 57 that will not chamber a brass case sized where the bottom of the sizing die is tight against the shell holder . The die is correct but the gun is slightly short chambered so instead of modifying the die I took about .010 off the top of a shell holder with my belt sander and the brass now fits properly. I colored the shell holder blue so I don’t use it with other calibers I load with the same case head size. I probably have a dozen of that size shell holders and that was the easy way to fix the problem.
Jedman

[caseyboy]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I will try seating a bullet long to force the case head against the bolt face approach first. Seems the easiest. I will make up a couple of dummy rounds to get the right seating depth. I will report back on how this works.
Cheers Mike