I may have been wrong about red dot sights on handguns

[Thundarstick]

Robert,

FYI - That "flat top" was most likely the SIG 365 SAS I love the sight on that gun and the "no snag" design for CCW. I picked one up for my wife (CCW) for Christmas and am considering getting one myself for a backup gun.

-Ron

Yep, I'm in the same boat on that sighting system. Most of the reviews you see gripe about it not being precise at range, but it's not for range work, it's for self defense work! I'm just trying to decide if it's worth an extra $100 to have a totally smooth flat slide.
I have astigmatism and most dot sights have a pronounced coma, more like comet, blur. I've found a prism sight works great, no coma at all.

[HumptyDumpty]

Some say that you won't have time to aim, but I tend to believe that you won't have time to miss. All shooting involves some degree of aiming, it's just that you may not be referencing the sights, or else not clearly resolving them. With sufficient practice, and assuming a very short distance, "point shooting" may well be the answer. But I don't typically practice or teach it. From everything I have read, and my own experimentation, I'm convinced that that practicing aimed fire cannot help but improve one's point-shooting, but the reverse does not appear to be true at all.
I don't personally like red dots, but if they permit you to take a more precise shot in your moment of need, then they are valuable.

[imashooter2]

so no one has mentioned the other option...red dot ON the target... the lazer beam.
mate has red dot on his .44magnum rifle for bailed pigs...average range of shots would be 10 yards..pretty much ideal,but so would a lazer.

The problem with lasers is the initial index. The dot gets lost in the background behind the target.

[Jtarm]

Point & counter-point:

https://youtu.be/jjlL0hYgdag

https://youtu.be/apILD12giac

[reddog81]

Every weekend you can go to a USPSA, ICORE or IDPA match and find guys that can aim and shoot pretty darn fast.

That's true but those guys shoot more every week than your average criminal does over the course of many years.

Point and shoot works great if you practice enough. If your average gun owner just pulls out a gun and starts blasting away chances are they won't hit whatever they are aiming at.

[Mk42gunner]

Thanks for pointing out that the flat top was probably the Sig 365 SAS; I am not normally that inattentive when it comes to firearms, I promise.

As to the people not even attempting to use sights, the only way I can see that coming out well in court is if you are at contact range with your assailant. I will admit that back when I ran a range in the early 90's I was shooting enough that I got relatively good out to about fifteen yards with indexing by the 1911A1 silhouette. However I was not trying to thread a round around a child and into a bad guy, then I would have definitely looked for the front sight.

The biggest difference I can see is the RDS meant for carry guns are small and almost in the same visual plane as iron sights. By the time you add a scope base then a RDS, you have to look almost an inch higher than years of experience tells you to look for the sights.

Robert

[M-Tecs]

The Sig 365 SAS sights are interesting. They tend to work well in good light and well in the dark. At least for me they are basically useless in low light.

[Dekota56]

My wife and I been practicing with open sites for years, I thought if I had to draw my weapon out.
A red dot would not matter. Reaction time. And how far the aggressive person is plays a big part.
It would take some time to get use to. It works right now for us out of the draw with open sights. I guess I never sampled around much with other red dots.
Now a red dot on my coyote hunting rifle works great. But not for protection, at lest for my wife and I.

[ScrapMetal]

Yep, I'm in the same boat on that sighting system. Most of the reviews you see gripe about it not being precise at range, but it's not for range work, it's for self defense work! I'm just trying to decide if it's worth an extra $100 to have a totally smooth flat slide.
I have astigmatism and most dot sights have a pronounced coma, more like comet, blur. I've found a prism sight works great, no coma at all.

Well, the "no snag" is definitely worth it for my wife's carry as she keeps it in her purse along with everything, less the kitchen sink? Just a guess as I don't dare try to find anything in there.

For me, the sight is accurate enough, especially as my eyes are set to different focal points. If I try to focus on a front sight I completely lose the rear and vice-versa. With the SAS I can actually get a clearer sight picture even if it isn't as "accurate". Which is more important? Beats me. At normal "gun fight" distances I am a pretty fair point shooter but having a sight I'm comfortable with provides a lot of reassurance.

JMHO

-Ron

[buckwheatpaul]

I was taught basic marksmanship and safety at a very tender age....fast forward to 1974 and as LE I was taught "riding the front sight" for shooting out to around 10 to 15 yards. I fought the red dot for years as I had bought those cheaper red dots with dismal result. A year ago my wife bought me a Ruger Max-9 and just two days ago I bought a Sig RomeoZero to try. First - 10 shots were spot on at 10 yards in extremely cold weather with high winds driving the temp down.

I did like the setup and when I went to the front sight the red dot was always present....so I believe that with a quality product the red dot sight is an extension or better way to approach "riding the front sight" I was taught 48 years ago...I'm not sure if it will become a primary carry or not yet or ever but it sure makes shooting easier for 70+ eyes. Just my 2 cents worth!

[winelover]

so no one has mentioned the other option...red dot ON the target... the lazer beam.
mate has red dot on his .44magnum rifle for bailed pigs...average range of shots would be 10 yards..pretty much ideal,but so would a lazer.

:


I was thinking along the same lines. All my carry pieces have either, Crimson Trace laser grips of Laserguards. They are not obtrusive. You can literally, shoot from the hip and make better hits than aimed fire.

Winelover

[one-eyed fat man]

... LE that were competitive shooters were averaging 1.3 shots per hit. The non-competitive shooting LE were averaging 15 shots per hit.

Shooters who like to shoot, tend to shoot a lot, thus likely shoot better than the ones who only shoot annual qualification because the job makes them.

Every weekend you can go to a USPSA, ICORE or IDPA match and find guys that can aim and shoot pretty darn fast.

Paper people never shoot back.

Point shooting, as taught by the likes of W.E. Fairbairn and Rex Applegate, have their place. The most important element in winning a gunfight according to Fairbairn was speed: the first shot must be fired within one-third second. That does not allow time to align the sights. Based on his analysis, most urban shootouts took place at 5 feet or less. I am pretty sure what worked in a dark Shanghai back alley in 1932 would prove just as useful in Chicago in 2022.

[Bigslug]

Acquiring a red dot on a pistol coming out of a holster is a different skill set from iron sights, and it takes some time and training. Faster once you get it, but it's a mistake to think that you can bolt on a red dot and instantly have all of your pistol shooting problems go away.

The big advantage for anybody over 45 is that the thing you use to aim has now moved into the same visual focal plane as the distance prescription on your glasses. The big advantage tactically is that you can watch your opponent's hands right up to and including the point of delivering rounds.

They don't appreciably add bulk to the CCW equation - they kinda live in that curve/gap your shirt forms across the top of the gun. The grip of the pistol is still the bigger concern.

They ain't foolproof. Like any optic on a hunting rifle, attention to quality of the mounting system and the details of the mounting process are key to keeping them attached properly. The open-backed ones collect lint when you CCW them and require frequent attention (I've gone to enclosed for this reason). The GOOD ones (and good mounting plates) are at the point of being durable enough to where we can trust them on duty guns in order to gain the sighting advantages, but they are not yet to the point of being quite as "soldier-proof" as the pistols underneath them - which is why we insist on backup irons that are just tall enough to give you a sliver of sights at the bottom of the red dot's window, but stay out of your way otherwise.

[AnthonyB]

Paraphrasing Bill Jordan here, who wrote that anyone who tried to use sights in a gunfight with him just proved that God loved him (Jordan) more than the other guy. I'm not Bill Jordan.

I'm workin on the transition to a quality red dot on my carry pistols. I have learned NOT to look for the dot, just bring the slide plate up to my eyes while looking at the target. With a good grip, the dot will be there. The main advantage seems to be concentrating solely on the target instead of looking for the front sight and then bringing it onto the target you have not been focusing on while it continued doing whatever annoyed you in the first place.

I can tell no difference in size/weight/bulk using a qood holster.
Tony

[Baltimoreed]

Truglo front sights work for my old eyes. I do have a crimson trace on a New Agent but it doesn’t have any sights.

[buckwheatpaul]

I see this thread is following the argument over 9mm vs 45 ACP vs 40 S & W! There is a lot of great info and will bring hour of information to decipher regarding red dot vs. open sights!

[Kevin Rohrer]

I have taken several RDS courses and understand their use for defensive handguns. They are useful for:

1. gamesmen
2. those of advanced age whose eyes can no longer focus on the front sight
3. longer range shooting for those who cannot hit a man-size target outside social distances.

The negatives are they

1. add bulk
2. are of no use at social distances
3. have a battery that dies when you do not want it to
4. have electronics that die when you do not want them to.

[Dekota56]

I agree, they have a purpose but, when all else fails you will need to shoot with open sights.
When you least expect it they do fail.

[megasupermagnum]

Shooters who like to shoot, tend to shoot a lot, thus likely shoot better than the ones who only shoot annual qualification because the job makes them.



Paper people never shoot back.

Point shooting, as taught by the likes of W.E. Fairbairn and Rex Applegate, have their place. The most important element in winning a gunfight according to Fairbairn was speed: the first shot must be fired within one-third second. That does not allow time to align the sights. Based on his analysis, most urban shootouts took place at 5 feet or less. I am pretty sure what worked in a dark Shanghai back alley in 1932 would prove just as useful in Chicago in 2022.

I had to look those two names up. Maybe back when those guys were shooting dinosaurs speed mattered more. Actually that's not true either. Back even when cap and ball revolvers were king, guys like wild bill lived to tell about it because they made that first shot count. I think there is a reason you don't hear those two names anymore, and why point shooting hasn't been taught in any real amount since about WWII.

You are going to have to try pretty hard to find any real instructor in the last 20 years that thinks point shooting is worth more than just something fun to try at the range.

[megasupermagnum]

I did a little research. While the true point shooting of Rex Applegate was shortly used for WWII and quickly abandoned, his "point shooting" method of bringing the pistol up to eye level to use the sights is still relevant. It actually looks quite similar to a modern squared stance and grip, except one handed. It absolutely uses the sights though. It was essentially what Jeff Cooper used, who turned it into a 2 hand grip with emphasis on quick sight picture.

At the end of the day the fundamentals have to be there.

Consistent grip
Consistent sight picture
Consistent trigger pull

Fail any of those, and you have a miss. You can't miss fast enough to make it count. There isn't a real pistol class today that will say otherwise.