Reloading Notes - Part 1 (Sizing)

[Mint]

The data you show looks like 44 special starting loads in magnum cases.

AHHHHHHHHH, no wonder. Damn I was like losing my mind thinking I was crazy

When I say "44 mag starting load" im literally just putting 44 magnum into the load data and looking at the "start"

it didnt occur to me they might be SHOWING 44 spl weight data but under the 44 magnum section

What you see in those images on hodgdon was 100% from selecting "44 magnum" under the rifle section

[Mint]

But OK, thank you.

I will stop there on a good note, before I drive anyone crazy

[Land Owner]

I agree. But this is for rifle loading for accuracy. For handgun or handgun chambered rifles, you seat to the crimp groove regardless of bullet jump.

Yes. Yes. Yes. You are correct. I "got lost" in the moment that the OP is reloading handgun cases, at present.

[Land Owner]

These [44 cal] bullets weigh within 5 grains of each other. See how much difference there is in used case volume?

Took me a second wondering why the two boolits pictured were not aligned base-to-base, then it dawned on me...

You have them pictured at a common benchmark - their Crimp Groove. From that reference line the difference in their case embedment lengths is observable, and thus more (or less) case volume is imaginable. Nice...

[Mint]

Hey,

So I just tried my first few 44 magnum rounds (stopped at powder stage)

First note, I used a ram primer per suggestions here. SO much better. It felt significantly more accurate, more safe, at the cost only of a fraction of speed.

Second note... this is where I'm not quite sure. When I used an NOE expander plug (.431x.427) inside Lee expander die, I noticed it was *significantly* harder on the upstroke to "unstick" it. I noticed this mildly on .357 but it didn't seem out of the ordinary. On 44 mag it was hard enough where I feel like if I did 500 rounds the screws holding the press in, or my workbench, or something is going to get loose. I looked closely at the expansion on the neck and the bullet sat in only maybe 1/16" ... so I don't think I had it screwed down too far. The neck wasn't even warped enough where I could see it with my own eye really.

So my first question is... does ^ this sound right?

My second question is, I noticed RIGHT at the bottom of the downstroke, for the last maybe 10% of the stroke I would feel resistance... but instead of a sensation like I might expect... perhaps similar to sizing (where it brass is being "shaped" with resistance force) instead the sensation was more like the sensation of leverage, or a lever... as in it would offer a very smooth resistance that would start strong and decrease. I was wondering if this was also OK or did I screw it in too far/not far enough. I suspect maybe it's from the plug's movement up and down in there, but I couldn't get a good look.

Thanks

[Mint]

As far as the NOE expander, I know the 1st number is bell diameter, and 2nd number (.427) is neck tension. my question is... for the neck tension, is it actually making the neck SMALLER than the sized brass diameter, and the bell BIGGER (like this diagram I made)?

I'm asking because I'm looking at the spec diagram in the load manual for 44 and it seems kind of weird. It says that its .432 and .456 diameters but the bell diameter first number from NOE plug isn't even larger than that in this diagram.

[jetinteriorguy]

To help ease the sticking take some Flitz and a cloth polishing wheel in a drill or Dremel and polish the plug. Sometimes this will really help a lot and sometimes just a bit. You could dip your case necks in some motor mica too if you don’t mind fiddling with an extra little step. I’m also curious if you wet tumble with stainless pins, I’ve heard that can cause the sticking too. I wet tumble everything now but no pins, I don’t care if the primer pocket is spotless and I prefer to leave the carbon in the neck to eliminate the need to lube the necks in rifle brass.

[Mint]

To help ease the sticking take some Flitz and a cloth polishing wheel in a drill or Dremel and polish the plug. Sometimes this will really help a lot and sometimes just a bit. You could dip your case necks in some motor mica too if you don’t mind fiddling with an extra little step. I’m also curious if you wet tumble with stainless pins, I’ve heard that can cause the sticking too. I wet tumble everything now but no pins, I don’t care if the primer pocket is spotless and I prefer to leave the carbon in the neck to eliminate the need to lube the necks in rifle brass.

Ah ok so this sounds like the same case with the sizing die where I should probably use some flour then. Right now i dont own a tumbler as Ive just started but I plan to wet tumble. i actually have flitz i can do that as well

[Bazoo]

I like .002 neck tension. I’ve found that any more, .003, cases the bullet base to swage when seated.

No the die isn’t making the brass smaller. The sizing die makes the outside smaller than needed so that the belling die can open them all exactly the same. This compensates for variation in brass thickness between brands of brass and lot numbers.

[Mint]

I like .002 neck tension. I’ve found that any more, .003, cases the bullet base to swage when seated.

No the die isn’t making the brass smaller. The sizing die makes the outside smaller than needed so that the belling die can open them all exactly the same. This compensates for variation in brass thickness between brands of brass and lot numbers.

Ok I suspected that might be the case (so many reloading puns I can't even avoid them now). So what you're saying is that actually the sizing die makes the diameter smaller such that the expanding plug can make it bigger at 2 different levels, at the neck and at the mouth.

Regarding .002 neck tension, he doesnt have any more of those in stock so I was forced to go with .003. He also never replied to my email so I guess I'm stuck with this for awhile.

[Mint]

I have found this BHN info on another forum showing the ideal pressure of the load for obturation.

I tried googling a more official chart and noticed it puts the same pressures but under "max pressure", so now I am wondering is the pressure listed the pressure of the load I'm shooting for (sorry please STOP with puns, im truly trying) , or something else?

Edit: I found this and it seems to be correct: https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

I suppose its better to go softer rather than harder if it's somewhere in the middle...

• BHN= 9 Desperado Bullets (uncoated)

• BHN= 9 Ringer Bullets (Hi-Tek) by Special Order

• BHN=10 Big Lube Bullets, Outlaw Bullets, Stateline Bullets

• BHN=12 Missouri Bullets

• BHN=13 Bear Creek Supply

• BHN=14 Gallant Bullets

• BHN=16 Acme, Badman, Bayou, Chey-Cast, Scarlett, SNS, Stateline

• BHN=18 Falcon Bullets, Missouri Bullets

• BHN=19 Cast Performance

• BHN=24 Oregon Trail laser cast
• BHN= 9 is 11,518 psi

• BHN=10 is 12,798 psi

• BHN=12 is 15,358 psi

• BHN=13 is 16,637 psi

• BHN=14 is 17,917 psi

• BHN=16 is 20,477 psi

• BHN=18 is 23,036 psi

• BHN=19 is 24,316 psi

• BHN=24 is 30,715 psi

[Bazoo]

If you had RCBS dies, they would send you the cowboy expander and then you’d have .428 expander plug. Perfect for .430 diameter bullets. I use Noe expanders some. But I prefer RCBS plugs when I can get them to work because they are longer. It means a longer bullet will seat.

[Mint]

So after doing 44, I went back and looked at the 357 bullets earlier in this thread (with the blue arrow).

I suppose it's a bit tricky at first to figure out the crimp groove. In the case of the 357 theres a ridge before it (the forward driving band)... but then on these 44 magnum there are no forward driving bands, they're behind the crimp groove.

is there any foolproof way to 100% be sure which is the crimp groove?

My guess is... the groove HAS to have an "overhang" on the side of the groove on the closest to the bullet nose. If it goes "in" but not back "out" then its not a crimp groove. Meaning =\/== rather than =\__.

Is that correct?

[Winger Ed.]

Most crimp grooves will have an angle cut going up into the groove from the base, then a sharp 90 degree edge on the top end of it.
They're cut that way so a roll crimp should lay right down on the bevel part in the groove.

Lay out, or make a dummy round-
the crimp groove should line up pretty close, or within tolerance for the OAL listed for that boolit in that case.

Since you're doing .357s- you might also get off into .38Special.
When you go to use the 148-ish grain wadcutters---for either or both---- wear a hat.
You're going to be doing a lot of head scratching over crimp grooves when you get into them.

[Land Owner]

I have been on Castboolits for some time and have not seen the BHN's expressed in post #111 nor would I assign definitive pressures to BHN's. There is so much you are overthinking in all of this.

Make an alloy of lead.
Cast some boolits. Air quench some. Water quench some.
Load some of each. Start low on the powder Mfg's recipe.
Use the "Pencil Test" for relative BHN if you must.
Shoot some.
Have some FUN.
You can over analyze when you get back from the range with a smile on your face.

[Mint]

I have been on Castboolits for some time and have not seen the BHN's expressed in post #111 nor would I assign definitive pressures to BHN's. There is so much you are overthinking in all of this.

Make an alloy of lead.
Cast some boolits. Air quench some. Water quench some.
Load some of each. Start low on the powder Mfg's recipe.
Use the "Pencil Test" for relative BHN if you must.
Shoot some.
Have some FUN.
You can over analyze when you get back from the range with a smile on your face.

Curiosity and analysis is so deeply within me it feels like it's in my DNA. It's an enjoyable process for me, and doesn't mean I'm overthinking anything. Surface level understandings of the way things are has never been my MO, regardless of hobby (options trading, programming, painting/drawing, etc etc). I'm able to separate my curiosity though from what is practical, even if it doesn't look like it.

For example... yesterday I loaded my first 44 mag and took them to the range and had an absolute blast It was literally probably one of my funnest times ever shooting. It was the first time shooting that gun, and it was my first time shooting 44 mag, as well as my first time reloading 44 mag. All three firsts aligned on a perfect range trip.

BTW I confirmed the BHN PSI numbers by this page, so it seems they're correct. But please tell me your thoughts, you guys are the experts. https://www.missouribullet.com/technical.php

It's more simply expressed by this formula according to that article, so no real table or chart is needed except this from what it sounds like:

Optimum BHN = PSI / (1422 x .90)

[Mint]

Most crimp grooves will have an angle cut going up into the groove from the base, then a sharp 90 degree edge on the top end of it.
They're cut that way so a roll crimp should lay right down on the bevel part in the groove.

Lay out, or make a dummy round-
the crimp groove should line up pretty close, or within tolerance for the OAL listed for that boolit in that case.

Since you're doing .357s- you might also get off into .38Special.
When you go to use the 148-ish grain wadcutters---for either or both---- wear a hat.
You're going to be doing a lot of head scratching over crimp grooves when you get into them.

OH great point about the OAL. duh, I didn't even think of that.

Funny you mention 148 gr wadcutters, that's literally some of the boolits I was looking at when thinking "hmmmmm....". Also these..... what the hell.

These seem to not be for lever guns so maybe they're just not intended to be crimped.

[Bazoo]

The red bullet is for a case that gets taper crimped. Such as 45 auto. Taper crimp doesn’t require a crimp groove or cannelure.

Some bullets are designed to crimp over the forward driving bands and have no crimp groove. Those are less common. The fool proof way is to only buy bullets with a crimp groove. I prefer to seat
and crimp in the same step and that means using bullets with a crimp groove. A big grip groove here makes combining the operations go smoother.

Bullet hardness is only one factor that needs to be considered when matching an alloy bullet to a specific pressure. Alloy toughness is less talked about but is as important.

I have found wheel weight alloy to be sufficient up to and including full bore 357 magnum. Even though some would say it isn’t sufficient for that pressure. My own experience says otherwise.

I’ve found half wheel weight and half soft lead to be fine for 44 special, but leaded in my 45 auto. Why? I’m not sure. I don’t think my pressure was much of any higher in the 45. But there is a lot more going on than just pressure x = velocity y.

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_textonly2.pdf
This is written by a member here. It contains lots of interesting info on cast bullets.

[David2011]

When I use lee dippers, what if you want some weight in between what the 2 scoops are, do you need to use one of each scoop (so youre holding multiple ones in your hand)? Isnt that more error prone?

One way to adjust the volume of a Lee dipper is to put a dab of hot glue in it. It’s easily adjusted or removed later. For a more permanent change, some 15 minute or slower epoxy can be put in the dipper. I’m not a fan of 5 minute because it doesn’t get as hard as the slower versions. It can be adjusted with a drill bit turned by hand.

The epoxy opinion is based on 50 years of RC airplane building.

[Bazoo]

Personally, I like dippers. They are so simple. I use lee dippers if they hit the amount I want to use. But rarely they do. And since it’s so much faster to use a powder measure, I generally do that. But I’ve loaded a bunch with the dippers none the less.