Reloading Notes - Part 1 (Sizing)

[jetinteriorguy]

Hmm, what comment of mine gave you that impression? So far I have only done 2 recipes, one of which I used the start load, and the other I used LESS than the start load by going to the 38 spl data (I'm shooting 357 mag)

And very good point about the progressive, I didn't think of that. Is it a possibility with a progressive that you dont actually do multiple rounds at once, but just 1 round to completion? Perhaps for learning that's a good middle ground.

You’ve stated that you’re a new hand loader and are already looking at being more efficient at just removing and replacing cases in the press by handling two at a time, plus you make no mention of using a starting load when showing a couple targets using different components. This sort of led me to think you’re trying to run before learning to walk, which is fairly common with new loaders but is also a recipe for disaster. This is what led me to think you just randomly picked a couple loads somewhere within published data, not starting loads. My apologies for making a wrong assumption. As a suggestion it’s pretty standard when working up a load to load a few at starting charges and then working up to a max load or one your comfortable with, by increasing in increments until you find a load that works for you. In revolvers I do six rounds, or one cylinders worth, per load increment. In semi auto pistols I do five rounds per increment. I choose increments based on the overall difference between minimum and maximum load sizes. In smaller loads I generally go .2gr at a time and larger size loads .3gr per increment. I also only work on one load at a time, one powder, one bullet, one primer, and one caliber. I do applaud your enthusiasm and hope you have many years of fun with this, I’ve been doing it since the early eighties and still average loading and shooting in various calibers around 8000-10,000 rounds per year and love every minute of it.

[Mint]

You’ve stated that you’re a new hand loader and are already looking at being more efficient at just removing and replacing cases in the press by handling two at a time, plus you make no mention of using a starting load when showing a couple targets using different components. This sort of led me to think you’re trying to run before learning to walk, which is fairly common with new loaders but is also a recipe for disaster. This is what led me to think you just randomly picked a couple loads somewhere within published data, not starting loads. My apologies for making a wrong assumption. As a suggestion it’s pretty standard when working up a load to load a few at starting charges and then working up to a max load or one your comfortable with, by increasing in increments until you find a load that works for you. In revolvers I do six rounds, or one cylinders worth, per load increment. In semi auto pistols I do five rounds per increment. I choose increments based on the overall difference between minimum and maximum load sizes. In smaller loads I generally go .2gr at a time and larger size loads .3gr per increment. I also only work on one load at a time, one powder, one bullet, one primer, and one caliber. I do applaud your enthusiasm and hope you have many years of fun with this, I’ve been doing it since the early eighties and still average loading and shooting in various calibers around 8000-10,000 rounds per year and love every minute of it.

Ah ok that's understandable. I made a bunch of other threads where we just discussed the actual load data.

I sort of have no interest at all right now trying to get max loads, heh. It's still quite nerve wracking, need to make sure I do everything perfectly and understand pressure signs before doing much higher.

My lever gun in 44 magnum comes soon, I may just try to do a middle of the road set of rounds and see how that goes

Thanks!

[Bazoo]

Mint, you said “Understand pressure signs”. Make no mistake, in calibers like 38 special, 44 special, 45 auto, there are no signs of high pressure before pressure rises high enough to damage or destroy the gun, with guns so chambered.

In 357 and 44 magnum you can have high pressure signs such as sticky extraction but it’s not a guarantee. Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs. You might get only 2-4 reloads on your brass is the only sign you’re over pressure. But your gun won’t take it forever without taking some fatigue and wear.


It’s totally safe to start with a 38 special load in magnum cases, but you shouldn’t start in the middle of the magnum data. You really need not increase the powder charges until you are throughly familiar with all the details of loading. One of the only estimations you have of pressure is the manuals recipe. Another is abnormal report or recoil.

[Mint]

Mint, you said “Understand pressure signs”. Make no mistake, in calibers like 38 special, 44 special, 45 auto, there are no signs of high pressure before pressure rises high enough to damage or destroy the gun, with guns so chambered.

In 357 and 44 magnum you can have high pressure signs such as sticky extraction but it’s not a guarantee. Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs. You might get only 2-4 reloads on your brass is the only sign you’re over pressure. But your gun won’t take it forever without taking some fatigue and wear.


It’s totally safe to start with a 38 special load in magnum cases, but you shouldn’t start in the middle of the magnum data. You really need not increase the powder charges until you are throughly familiar with all the details of loading. One of the only estimations you have of pressure is the manuals recipe. Another is abnormal report or recoil.

Wow, definitely extremely solid info. I need to re-read that again a few times, but very quick question... I've been thinking of this for awhile. If I just buy a standard 44 magnum load (a generic hollow point round or something) about where on the Start <--> Max load scale do you think it is? Would it be somewhere in the middle?

Basically I'm just wondering generally where factory ammo sits on this spectrum, whether its (on average) 50% or 80%

[Mint]

In 357 and 44 magnum you can have high pressure signs such as sticky extraction but it’s not a guarantee. Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs. You might get only 2-4 reloads on your brass is the only sign you’re over pressure. But your gun won’t take it forever without taking some fatigue and wear.


It’s totally safe to start with a 38 special load in magnum cases, but you shouldn’t start in the middle of the magnum data. You really need not increase the powder charges until you are throughly familiar with all the details of loading. One of the only estimations you have of pressure is the manuals recipe. Another is abnormal report or recoil.

Can you explain a bit more why magnum doesn't show pressure signs? When you say "Those cartridges work at the edge of where high pressure begins so you can’t always count on pressure signs.", do you mean to say that high pressure signs only appear ACROSS THE BOARD (all calibers) at SOME pressure level? Based on what you said...... maybe 50,000 PSI or something?

If so, that is very very interesting. I'm surprised manuals don't make a bigger deal about that because that is a huge huge point............ I just assumed regardless of caliber, I will see high pressure signs when I reach some % threshhold of the max saami spec PSI (like whether its 90%, 99%, 120%). Now that you said that though.... that makes way more sense becuase its the same brass, same primers, etc

Duly noted on only doing start loads for 44 magnum.

I was thinking something like this...

[Bazoo]

Factory ammo is somewhere between 80% and 100%. Pends on who loaded it. Sometimes it will be slightly over pressure for you. Mostly it’s probably about 90% I’d say for 44 mag. Probably 80% for 38 special.

You’ll never see high pressure signs in 44 special, but in 44 mag you can. If I recall correctly 44 mag is a 35k psi cartridge. You won’t see high pressure signs normally at 30k but will start, I think, around 40k and likely won’t at 35k. But I’d guess the only signs you’re likely to see is stuck brass and maybe primer pockets getting loose after only a few reloads. Your gun won’t take 40k psi loads for long without developing headspace wear, but it might take a couple thousand.

Sometimes you’ll see pressure signs like stuck cases that are not from high pressure. Such as soft brass. Or rough chambers. How do you know? Experience. I had stuck cases in my 30-30. It want high pressure, I was sure. But I posted about it and after some thought, figured out it was lube left on the brass causing high bolt thrust locking the gun up. I cleaned my cases better and the problem stopped immediately. Taking careful notes on a matter like that is a must. Changing case lube might not be remember when a problem arises.

[Mint]

Thats just wild............... I never would have expected a factory rifle couldn't handle more than a few thousand rounds before developing serious wear. That's completely crazy! Jeeebus......

Very, very enlightening.

What is a "stuck brass". Does that mean when I go to cycle it wont extract and sticks in chamber?

[Bazoo]

Something comes to mind. A story. A guy had some thumper loads he’d worked up and they were excessive. He contacted a well known gun writer and asked. The gun writer asked have you blown up or broke anything yet? The guy answered no. The gun writer said it’s probably okay then. But it wasn’t long afterwards the guys gun failed and blew up.

I’m not really sure on why sometimes you have pressure signs at x pressure level but not at y pressure level. There are so many factors that affect pressure.

Headspace
Ambient temperature
Primer
Case shape
Throat in the bore
Freebore
Bullet weight
Seating depth
Crimp
Alloy of cast
Lube used
Rifling twist
Powder position in the case
Loading technique
Brass hardness

Would it be safe to pick a mid level load and load it? Maybe. But it’s bad reloading practices.

I was loading 45 auto using wsf. I don’t recall the powder charge. But I started at the starting load. Well. I got a surprise. Heavy recoil and muzzle blast. It was more like a heavy +p load. So I backed off the powder charge and finally settled on about a grain below the minimum in the lyman book. That duplicated factory recoil and muzzle blast. Why? My bullets were only about 9 grains heavier than listed, but were the same exact cast bullet. Could it have been something else, sure. Probably my lot of powder was hotter than what they tested. I was probably using a different primer, though I can’t remember now. But all those little things stacked up so even a starting charge was borderline unsafe.

So my point is, if I’d took the middle road charge there, I would have blown my gun up.

[Bazoo]

Thats just wild............... I never would have expected a factory rifle couldn't handle more than a few thousand rounds before developing serious wear. That's completely crazy! Jeeebus......

Very, very enlightening.

What is a "stuck brass". Does that mean when I go to cycle it wont extract and sticks in chamber?

That’s a couple thousand rounds of slightly over pressure.

Stuck brass is when the brass will not extract and the action won’t budge. It locks the gun up. You resort to using a rubber mallet to try to unlock the gun. Maybe put a brass rod down the bore to dislodge the case. Worse case is that nothing you do will budge it and you have to take it to a gunsmith to remove the brass.

[Mint]

Something comes to mind. A story. A guy had some thumper loads he’d worked up and they were excessive. He contacted a well known gun writer and asked. The gun writer asked have you blown up or broke anything yet? The guy answered no. The gun writer said it’s probably okay then. But it wasn’t long afterwards the guys gun failed and blew up.

I’m not really sure on why sometimes you have pressure signs at x pressure level but not at y pressure level. There are so many factors that affect pressure.

Headspace
Ambient temperature
Primer
Case shape
Throat in the bore
Freebore
Bullet weight
Seating depth
Crimp
Alloy of cast
Lube used
Rifling twist
Powder position in the case
Loading technique
Brass hardness

Would it be safe to pick a mid level load and load it? Maybe. But it’s bad reloading practices.

I was loading 45 auto using wsf. I don’t recall the powder charge. But I started at the starting load. Well. I got a surprise. Heavy recoil and muzzle blast. It was more like a heavy +p load. So I backed off the powder charge and finally settled on about a grain below the minimum in the lyman book. That duplicated factory recoil and muzzle blast. Now that ain’t always the case. Why? My bullets were only about 9 grains heavier than listed, but were the same exact cast bullet. Could it have been something else, sure. Probably my lot of powder was hotter than what they tested. I was probably using a different primer, though I can’t remember now. But all those little things stacked up so even a starting charge was borderline unsafe.

So my point is, if I’d took the middle road charge there, I would have blown my gun up.

Wow..... Ok, you REALLY put that in perspective then. I guess I didn't realize mid level loads were even still dangerous, but that makes sense.

I mean I have a lot of questions, but I don't "need" to even figure it out now, I'm just going to keep loading Start pressure loads.

[Mint]

I wish a book talked more about this stuff... so far Ive read the Lyman manual and it hasn't really said anything about this. It was like 1 sentence of "be careful with max loads, not for beginners"

This higher level stuff though, would be nice to know

[Land Owner]

Recommend you read https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...or-Handgunners

Start a "Reloading Journal" of your own. Write down and include every "wisdom" you have learned, every failure, every success, everything you tried, every load, include pictures, and targets, leave nothing to chance or memory, which fades. You WILL return again and again and again to your own words in your Journal. You will thank yourself in shorter "reset and recovery times" and remember with even greater success going forward. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. When you have crossed a bridge, write down the journey.

[Mint]

Recommend you read https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...or-Handgunners

Start a "Reloading Journal" of your own. Write down and include every "wisdom" you have learned, every failure, every success, everything you tried, every load, include pictures, and targets, leave nothing to chance or memory, which fades. You WILL return again and again and again to your own words in your Journal. You will thank yourself in shorter "reset and recovery times" and remember with even greater success going forward. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. When you have crossed a bridge, write down the journey.

Thanks, I just bought a log book. Right now I write in a lined notebook but it's not really good enough.

I was sitting here looking out the window thinking... I've often hard pistol calibers are safe to use in rifles. I've never actually had or seen a squib, but there wouldn't be MORE chance of a squib when using a pistol load data in rifle correct? I don't see why there would be I'm just making sure. From what I understand, the chamber is the same, the pressure is the same, and the velocity is the same or greater with the longer barrel.

I have also read its 500-600 fps where squibs usually occur. I dont know if thats accurate or if that applies to multiple calibers.

Do I generally need to worry about squibs if I always use the start load (and not lower)? Ie are they even a slim chance where I should mentally be keeping my mind on that each shot.

[Bazoo]

Yes, squibs can be an issue. For a starting load in 38 or 44 specials, I’d be concerned and check my target to be sure of a bullet hole. Pistol barrels are 4” vs 20”-24” It isn’t just the pressure. It’s the expanding gas that makes the pressure. If you have a light charge of fast powder, and a long barrel, you can run out of expanding gas to drive the bullet forward.

[1hole]

What is a "stuck brass". Does that mean when I go to cycle it wont extract and sticks in chamber?

That's exactly what it means and cases don't have to be welded into the chamber to be "sticky". Any case that doesn't extract easily, i.e., requires uncommon effort, is sticky and sticky isn't good.

The way it works is cases expand when fired but they're elastic and will spring back, at least until the tensile strength of brass is exceeded, then the case expansion becomes permanent. What is often ignored is the chamber also expands and steel has a greater tensile strength than brass. Thus, a fired chamber on the ragged edge of a "KABOOM!" may expand and contract more than the case. if so, the chamber's steel will spring back more than the brass case and the stretched case will then be more or less tightly gripped, meaning the chamber itself is rapidly approaching rupture; loud fire breathing dragons live in those very deep waters, don't knowingly go there.

Trying to gage safe handgun pressures by looking for excess rifle pressure signs is an invitation to disaster.

At their best, handguns are quite wimpy so it seems that pushing past normal velocity limits for a day-dream handgun fight is probably pointless anyway. I believe anyone thinking he might benefit from squeezing out a few more terminal FPS should simply plan to let his target(s) take another step closer.

I remember an old reloader in my gun club being asked by an eager handloading noob how to find the highest possible safe velocity. The old guy told him to "Start loading at book max and keep adding .1 gr. of powder until she blows up, then back off .2 gr."; he knew what he was talking about. And he didn't mention any percentages of anything at all.

[Mint]

That's exactly what it means and cases don't have to be welded into the chamber to be "sticky". Any case that doesn't extract easily, i.e., requires uncommon effort, is sticky and sticky isn't good.

The way it works is cases expand when fired but they're elastic and will spring back, at least until the tensile strength of brass is exceeded, then the case expansion becomes permanent. What is often ignored is the chamber also expands and steel has a greater tensile strength than brass. Thus, a fired chamber on the ragged edge of a "KABOOM!" may expand and contract more than the case. if so, the chamber's steel will spring back more than the brass case and the stretched case will then be more or less tightly gripped, meaning the chamber itself is rapidly approaching rupture; loud fire breathing dragons live in those very deep waters, don't knowingly go there.

Trying to gage safe handgun pressures by looking for excess rifle pressure signs is an invitation to disaster.

At their best, handguns are quite wimpy so it seems that pushing past normal velocity limits for a day-dream handgun fight is probably pointless anyway. I believe anyone thinking he might benefit from squeezing out a few more terminal FPS should simply plan to let his target(s) take another step closer.

I remember an old reloader in my gun club being asked by an eager handloading noob how to find the highest possible safe velocity. The old guy told him to "Start loading at book max and keep adding .1 gr. of powder until she blows up, then back off .2 gr."; he knew what he was talking about. And he didn't mention any percentages of anything at all.

Fantastic information, thanks. I'm writing this stuff down in my book (the bit about stuck cases/ steel tensile strength)

Just to make sure I 100% follow what you mean by this...

meaning the chamber itself is rapidly approaching rupture; loud fire breathing dragons live in those very deep waters, don't knowingly go there.

Based on everything I understand this can even be possible in the middle of a load (between start and max), if bullets are changed, or primers are changed, or the reloading method is a bit off (like in Bazoo 45 example). I must be super vigilant even if using a starting load and always be looking out I suppose.

PS i dont shoot any revolvers, right now its only lever guns with 20-24" barrel

I don't really have a question, I'm just trying to form some kind of ... logical ... framework, when it's safe for me to relax my mind a bit from trying to look for all these signs. That doesn't mean being careless or NOT paying attention, but it's also mentally strenuous trying to remember to look for 20 different things when shooting instead of focusing on actual shooting. As an example, both loads I created for the 357 magnum fired well out of my lever gun from what I gather. No stuck cases, cycled smoothly, velocities were all extremely consistent in both recipes (~1050 fps). On the cases where the bullet was seated too deeply (3 or 4 of them) it increased fps about 20-30 fps. One was 4.5 titegroup and one was 6.0 accurate #5, both with 158 gr lead RNFP. So... given that, at what point can I repeat these forumals and focus more on shooting?

Question: is velocity a good measure of how dangerous something is? ie, if the velocities of my rounds are far away from the velocities listed under a "max" load, is that a signal i can rely on that I'm very likely in a safe range on the high end?

[Mint]

Ok, I suppose what I'm looking for is a formula on "what" to actually do outside of the reloading mechanics. The reloading process is incredibly logical, comprehensive, with excellent safety points on each step. It all makes perfect sense.

But the mindset behind how to approach the load data is completely absent from my mind. Is there a good guide that explains that part?

It feels very much like I don't actually know what I'm doing in that regard. I know I want to shoot it out of a rifle, I know I want a low powered load for target shooting/preserving brass/plinking. I know I want a few medium powered loads for those mornings I wake up feeling spicy and want some good recoil. These are not especially specific or scientific goals.

When I pick a bullet weight, it's sort of what's just recommended for light loads/popular loads. For example on 357 I didnt have any real logic behind my choices for picking 158 other than I saw it mentioned many times as someones favorite plinking bullet. This isn't very scientific. Buying bullets from every grain weight imaginable and testing all of them is not feasible for me (I can shoot once per week with our range.......)

Therefore, I sort of just pick things somewhat arbitrarily, then there is powder. I'm also picking that somewhat arbitrarily based on the speed of burning, favoring faster burning for cleaner shots in lower velocity plinking rounds, and what I see repeated over and over and over consistently. Fine at a "high level" but what about a fine grained level of like.. bullseye vs titegroup which have nearly identical performance from my single test.

When I shot those 2 different loads I made at the range, the velocities were nearly the same. The accuracy seemed to "outshoot" me in both cases, nearly the same. so in that regard I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to observe there. How would I know which to pick?

Overall, it's just all a bit unclear on what to "do" with the results. How would I know if I should switch powder or increase it? (rhetorical question, I know you gave lots of advice here, speaking generally)

I don't expect some big answer to explain all this, that's more why I was hoping there was some kind of chapter in a book or something that explained this from a basic level down to the nuance of it. So far I haven't seen any chapters in these reloading manuals that address the mentality behind the decisions of...

- what to change/when to change it
- what to look for as positive/negative signals (again, you guys have given great advice here, I'm speaking generally though, not ignoring what you said). it feels like a few puzzle pieces in a much greater puzzle
- how to pick your goals to begin with
- how bullet gr ACTUALLY affects your goals and not just simple statements like "BIG BOOLIT MUCH DROP. SMALL BOOLIT MUCH FLAT" I'm not hunting, so I don't care about annhilating rabbits.

[Bazoo]

If you test a load and all is well with it, then load up a few boxes and shoot them for plinking ammo. What to look for? If they seem normal then they are okay and fine for plinking. Accuracy is something to look for. So if you test x and it shoots satisfactory, then load them up for next time. You may load that load for the rest of your life or you may decide it ain’t so great later on and load something else.

Velocity is an indicator. So if you get the expected velocity then you are probably pretty close in pressure. But at the max end, pressure can increase without a proportional increase in velocity.

As far as picking some arbitrary powder and bullet for your test, ain’t that what you do with factory ammo? You just shoot whatever you can find, or choose the cheapest when you find two. I pick a powder by several ways. What do I have? What’s my goals? So if I want plinking loads at the min to med level I’ll pick bullseye. I could use unique for that and it’d work. But unique is better for a medium load to a starting magnum load, so I generally reserve it for that. So out of what I have, I choose what’s best for the application. How do i determine that? Researching the powder and how others use it. What pressure range does it like? Another way is to ask online what powder y’all like for x and if someone says titegroup, I may try it provided I have data that supports it in that application. So there isn’t any real rhyme or reason, not really, if your goal is making decent plinking ammo. Some people avoid powders that don’t flow through a powder measure well. I would.



The bullet weight makes little difference to a goal of cheap plinking ammo. For hunting it does. But the way I pick a bullet is, first, can I find data for it? Second, did I acquire a mould cheap and even though I have no data I am determined to use it?

If you want to make max or closer to max loads, use a bullet for which you have specific data. Reserve bullets for which there is no data for plinking loads.

[Land Owner]

1.) Define goal(s) for yourself.
2.) Purchase a Powder or Bullet Mfg. reloading manual.
3.) Note powder & bullet combinations.
4.) Which components are readily available?
5.) How much are you going to shoot?
6.) This is a cast boolit site, but jacketed bullets work well too.
7.) How much is it going to cost? Can I afford "all I want" or, is there a budget?


A.) My goal - quality rifle ammo for hunting.
B.) Now, I have 17 Loading Manuals, several of which are digital and online.
C.) Rifle calibers, jacketed bullets, and powder choices were made.
D.) Components were purchased before run up in price and downturn in supply.
E.) I shot A LOT of powder-bullet combinations until an acceptable CONFIDENCE in myself, my equipment, my methods, and on-target accuracy in one (1) load for each rifle caliber was achieved.
F.) I shoot lead alloy from revolvers and pistols for self-defense at "across the room" accuracy (i.e. not long range).
G.) I had a budget of no "exorbitant" or "extravagant" purchases. Slowly, purposefully, addictively, over 30+years in this hobby I am invested currently at over $50k in reloading and casting gear, guns, and components, and have sent that much and then some downrange. I expect to recoup most of my investment (that I don't shoot or keep) as the equipment and components are ever increasing in value, their robustness exceeds a single human lifespan, and many components are currently unavailable.

YMMV.

[ulav8r]

As a check on pressure levels above mid-range powder charges, if things seem ok after a few shots and accuracy is acceptable, take a new case and load it with the same formula and load and shoot it at least 20 times. If the case is still in good condition the pressure is most likely acceptable. If the case will not size down properly at the base or the primer pocket is oversize causing loose primers the pressure is definitely too high. If the neck splits after several reloads, it may be excess pressure but it may be because of excessive working of the neck by the dies or expander or excessive crimping or hard brass.

Careful measurement of the new cases after sizing and loading can tell you if the brass is being overworked. Notes will enable you to better determine what is happening. If you have a load that you are ecstatic with but case splits shorten brass life you can consider modifying dies to reduce working of the brass, such as enlarging the interior of the sizing die so the expander just barely opens up the neck for proper bullet seating, or modifying the expander to just barely flare the neck so that crimping does the minimum amount necessary to hold the bullet and stay there through cycling and firing loads. Also remember that perfect can be the enemy of getting to a good, workable solution. For any cartridge you load there could be hundreds of solutions that make useful loads and finding the "perfect" solution would require that you test "EVERY" bullet, powder, primer, and brass available in every possible combination and every acceptable seating depth for up to several hundred times on the better loads to find the best load. Careful study of several load manuals can show the 2 or 3 most likely useful powders to start with, and searching through this, and maybe other forums, can help you reduce the number of primers, brass, and bullets to try. Availability and cost could eliminate some of those choices. If you cast your own bullets or buy commercial, the desired use can help reduce the variety you need to try. Plinking ammo just needs a certain amount of accuracy to be acceptable, trying to cut an acceptable group in half could take ages to accomplish. If you just want to experiment, try as many as you can, but if you want to do a lot of shooting in the field or on the range a good, acceptable load will allow you to go aut and shoot instead of conducting hundreds of more test loads.