Is .44 mag "difficult" to load down for?

[Bazoo]

Nice rifle by the way. Very nice.

To hit on a few notes from the thread here, with moderate loads you can expect 20+ reloads on your brass. I once loaded a 30-30 case to failure, to see how many reloads it would take. You might find it interesting https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...Case-Life-Test

Pistol brass ends it’s life in one of two ways normally. Primer pockets getting loose, which will let hot gas by and burn your bolt face. This is more an issue with high pressure loads. Or splits at the mouth, maybe the body. The mouth splitting is the most common reason and could be mitigated by annealing.

As far as trimming. I trim all my revolver brass once so that it’s consistent. Consistent crimp is important for accuracy, and anything other than a collet crimp die relies on consistent case length.

44 mag or 357 mag, in full pressure loadings will stretch cases and eventually may need trimming again. Usually though they don’t get reloaded at this level enough to cause lengthening and will instead get shorter. They get shorter from working the brass during reloading, not firing. When they get longer, it’s because pressure grips the front of the case against the chamber walls while the pressure pushes against the case moving its base rearward, stretching it.

[Mint]

Nice rifle by the way. Very nice.

To hit on a few notes from the thread here, with moderate loads you can expect 20+ reloads on your brass. I once loaded a 30-30 case to failure, to see how many reloads it would take. You might find it interesting https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...Case-Life-Test

Pistol brass ends it’s life in one of two ways normally. Primer pockets getting loose, which will let hot gas by and burn your bolt face. This is more an issue with high pressure loads. Or splits at the mouth, maybe the body. The mouth splitting is the most common reason and could be mitigated by annealing.

As far as trimming. I trim all my revolver brass once so that it’s consistent. Consistent crimp is important for accuracy, and anything other than a collet crimp die relies on consistent case length.

44 mag or 357 mag, in full pressure loadings will stretch cases and eventually may need trimming again. Usually though they don’t get reloaded at this level enough to cause lengthening and will instead get shorter. They get shorter from working the brass during reloading, not firing. When they get longer, it’s because pressure grips the front of the case against the chamber walls while the pressure pushes against the case moving its base rearward, stretching it.

Awesome information, thank you. That post was a very good read

[Bazoo]

As per recoil, I’ve fired several 357 mag rifles and several 30-30 rifles. Never a 44 mag. I’d guess a full pressure 44 mag to be on par with a 30-30. But I’d say a light 44 mag, like 10 grains unique under a 250 grain bullet would be less recoil than a full pressure 357 mag.

The real key to easy shooting is a lighter bullet. A 200 grain bullet is going to kick much less than a 250 grain bullet, but still have a good thump.

Shooting a 30-30 from the bench is unpleasant because of stock shape and gun weight. The key here is to hold the gun with two hands, resting your off hand in the cradle, and using an upright sitting position so the gun is positioned similar to when shooting offhand. Leverguns, like my Winchester 94, were made to shoot offhand, not from the bench.

[Mint]

As per recoil, I’ve fired several 357 mag rifles and several 30-30 rifles. Never a 44 mag. I’d guess a full pressure 44 mag to be on par with a 30-30. But I’d say a light 44 mag, like 10 grains unique under a 250 grain bullet would be less recoil than a full pressure 357 mag.

The real key to easy shooting is a lighter bullet. A 200 grain bullet is going to kick much less than a 250 grain bullet, but still have a good thump.

Shooting a 30-30 from the bench is unpleasant because of stock shape and gun weight. The key here is to hold the gun with two hands, resting your off hand in the cradle, and using an upright sitting position so the gun is positioned similar to when shooting offhand. Leverguns, like my Winchester 94, were made to shoot offhand, not from the bench.

Where is the "cradle" for my off hand? I usually place my off hand on the very frontward portion of the front handguard toward the muzzle. Is there a better place?

[Kosh75287]

I think the "cradle" is the U-shaped part of the support that would normally hold the fore end of your rifle. If I follow BAZOO'S instructions right, you place your non-shooting hand, palm up in the U-shaped part, lay the fore end of your rifle in it, grip it firmly (but not FIERCELY), with an effort to push it back firmly into your shoulder. This will help reduce the rifle muzzle's tendency to rise, and help minimize the felt recoil of the round.
BAZOO, feel free to jump in, if I don't have this exactly right.
SOME "cradles" on shooting benches are more V-shaped, which I find a p.i.t.a.
Your "off" hand position to the forward-most part of the fore end is probably okay. If it better enables you to exert backward effort to push the rifle butt firmly into your shoulder, so much the better. I see this hand position often when shooters much over 6' tall shoot short lever carbines. We "6-foot & under" shooters tend to grip the fore end more toward in middle, especially if there's checkering to grip.

[Mint]

I think the "cradle" is the U-shaped part of the support that would normally hold the fore end of your rifle. If I follow BAZOO'S instructions right, you place your non-shooting hand, palm up in the U-shaped part, lay the fore end of your rifle in it, grip it firmly (but not FIERCELY), with an effort to push it back firmly into your shoulder. This will help reduce the rifle muzzle's tendency to rise, and help minimize the felt recoil of the round.
BAZOO, feel free to jump in, if I don't have this exactly right.
SOME "cradles" on shooting benches are more V-shaped, which I find a p.i.t.a.
Your "off" hand position to the forward-most part of the fore end is probably okay. If it better enables you to exert backward effort to push the rifle butt firmly into your shoulder, so much the better. I see this hand position often when shooters much over 6' tall shoot short lever carbines. We "6-foot & under" shooters tend to grip the fore end more toward in middle, especially if there's checkering to grip.

Ah ok that makes sense. I'm one of those 6 foot and over shooters, with that said this also isn't a carbine. That position is pretty greuling on el ol 1886 26"

[Bazoo]

Maybe cradle ain’t the best term. When shooting from the bench, with a bolt action rifle. The front of the stock rests in a cradle, or on a rest. This is what I mean. And the off hand goes under the buttstock most often. But for leverguns it’s better to have your off hand gripping as you would when shooting offhand, at the front of the forestock and rest the back of your hand against the support or in the cradle.

And having the supports higher so you sit upright verses leaning forward or slumped, helps control recoil. But makes for a less stable shooting platform.

I rarely shoot from the bench. I most often shoot from sitting, back supported, rested off my knee. I shoot off the bench more when I want to test loads but might test from a field position too if I ain’t feeling like tabling my gun.

[Bazoo]

One thing to consider on that note, shooting a levergun from a bench rest, if not holding the forestock, you risk shearing the band or forearm screws. I had a marlin 1894c that I sheared the rear band screw. The load was 358156 over 15 grains 2400. A full pressure load of old days, that is above published data today. The rear band wasn’t as tight as it is on my Winchester 94 which is pretty snug. A rifle foreend will be less susceptible than a carbine band.

[Mint]

One thing to consider on that note, shooting a levergun from a bench rest, if not holding the forestock, you risk shearing the band or forearm screws. I had a marlin 1894c that I sheared the rear band screw. The load was 358156 over 15 grains 2400. A full pressure load of old days, that is above published data today. The rear band wasn’t as tight as it is on my Winchester 94 which is pretty snug. A rifle foreend will be less susceptible than a carbine band.

Hmm I don't follow this. If I have the forestock resting on sandbags it has the danger of shearing screws??

[JoeJames]

Hmm I don't follow this. If I have the forestock resting on sandbags it has the danger of shearing screws??

I would not think that would be an appreciable problem with sandbags.

[Moleman-]

No problems shooting a box of 100 top end 44 mag loads in my 20" marlin. Lighter plinking loads have noticable less recoil and 200rnds is easy to go through plinking at the steel plates.

[Mint]

ok I have a few more miscellaneous questions I wrote down. Instead of making a new thread I feel like I can just keep my learning self-contained here, as this thread already has some good momentum.

Totally no worries if no one wants to answer these

1. What variable(s) ultimately makes a powder and bullet combination more accurate than another. For example in the Lyman book there is always a bolded powder. Obviously there are fast/slow burning powders which may burn clean or dirty depending on the barrel length and bullet weight. Ultimately though in my mind, the moment the bullet leaves out the muzzle, at that point it's simply rotating + traveling at X fps, where the powder has no more affect on the bullet. The only thing I can think of is some burning powders gas expansion variance may cause some "shakiness" of the bullet causing it to wobble, or perhaps improperly timed gas right when it leaves the muzzle can cause it to go off course. But in this case, why wouldn't that be more of a function of the powder itself that applies globally (ie, just a shiesty powder in general).

2. Is it true I can look at 44 special load data (powder brand, starting powder weight, bullet weight/type), and without changing ANYTHING, place it into a 44 magnum case? I've read multiple people say this but I want to verify 100% it's kosher to do so before considering it. Beyond safety, will this still be very accurate or should I just not consider doing this if I also want accuracy.

3. If a formula calls for a magnum primer is it generally safe to switch to a non-magnum primer? I understand going the other direction is NOT safe (non-magnum -> magnum).

4. If a formula calls for a Winchester or Fed primer, is it generally safe to use a CCI one? All I have are CCI 500 and 300 (for both .357/.44 mag)

[Soundguy]

You should be fine loading a 44spl load in a mag case.

Safety wise, dropping from a mag to normal primer should be ok.

If you re work up a load, you can switch a non mag primer to mag. I often work up loads and switch to mag primers in hunting loads used in cold areas. Depending on your gun..sometimes when dealing with small PRI.ers a srp can be subbed in for spm.

[Bazoo]

Variables that make an accurate load aren’t as simple as powder and bullet. If it were, everyone would just load the skeeter load or other popular recipe that’s accurate. Some loads are popular because they are accurate over lots of people’s guns. But each gun will have its preferences. And a load the performed great in my gun may shoot for crap in your gun.

There are some flops in bullet design. And winners. Bullet design makes a lot of difference. Research if others had success with your bullet of choice. A full wadcutter may be great accuracy at less than 50 yards but at 65 it may open up to 6” because it’s tumbling or yawing badly.

Barrel harmonics plays a big part in accuracy, especially in a rifle. Some guns though like a particular velocity range. Some rare ones shoot good seems like no matter what.

Bullet weight and velocity in relation to rifling twist rate. For example, a 300 grain bullet won’t stabilize at 600fps sometimes but will at 1200, in 44 mag. Don’t forget bullet diameter too. If you’re groove diameter is .431 and you load .429 bullets, you likely won’t be accurate. But it’s possible the bullets will obturate and you’ll have great accuracy. It’s a try and see kinda thing. Research as to what others had success with helps shorten the experimentation phase of finding a good load or two for your caliber.

It’s safe to swap primer brands if you’re not already at the top end. Also safe to swap mag or regular. So if you are at a starting load, change it and work up.

It’s safe to take a max 44 special load out of the book and put it in magnum cases. Loading to magnum length. A max spl load that is 15k psi will be less than that in mag cases because of the extra air space. Maybe 13k would be a guess.

Will it be accurate? Dunno. If you use bullet x and unique powder at 6.0 grains it may be accurate or not. You work up til you get accuracy, maybe at 7.2 for example. Then accuracy falls off. But it may get accurate again at 10 grains or may not. I’ve seen loads be so close for accuracy that it was take your pick, I also have seen a grain or two of powder make 2-3 inches difference on paper, in a rifle. I’ve had plenty of pistol loads that the accuracy didn’t change appreciably with the powder charge change. So in that case, pick what you like recoil and velocity wise.

Factory ammo is made to x velocity and they sell it to ya whether or not your gun shoots it accurately. If your gun shoots factory into 2” at 50 yards and you are happy, you likely will be happy with about anything you can make up at the reloading bench. If though your gun shoots an inch at 50 yards and you ain’t satisfied, then you will have a long journey to get it better most likely. I’m easy to please so I’m satisfied with mostly what others call mediocre accuracy. My 30-30 shoots less than 2” at 75y with minimal effort to get there. I’m happy as a lark. I take it off the bench and shoot coke cans. Others aren’t happy unless a dime will cover their bullet holes and then only if it’s a 10 shot group.

Loading technique plays a part. If you scrape lead off the sides of the bullets when seating, then you won’t have accuracy. Or, if some cases are crimped and some not because of case length variation, you’ll have poor accuracy.

[Alan]

All time favorite load is 240gr cast & 9 gr unique.

Even Elmer Keith didn't believe in pounding his gunsnto death. His "heavy target" load was 250gr & 8.5 gr of Unique.

[racepres]

All time favorite load is 240gr cast & 9 gr unique.

Even Elmer Keith didn't believe in pounding his gunsnto death. His "heavy target" load was 250gr & 8.5 gr of Unique.

No Clue what Elmer did... But 8.6 gr Unique with 240-255 LSWC is about all I Want...

BTW Bazoo....well said above.... Well Said Indeed...

[Mint]

If it were, everyone would just load the skeeter load or other popular recipe that’s accurate. Some loads are popular because they are accurate over lots of people’s guns. But each gun will have its preferences.

Makes exceptional sense, TBH I would be surprised if it were any other way. Thanks for verifying 100% that's the case.

Bullet weight and velocity in relation to rifling twist rate. For example, a 300 grain bullet won’t stabilize at 600fps sometimes but will at 1200, in 44 mag. Don’t forget bullet diameter too.

Mmmm very interesting. Now that you mention it I do remember reading about this when looking to buy a B-92 in 44 magnum and everyone was complaining about the rifling in 44 specifically, and said to get 357 instead. In the case of the gun I bought (the photo earlier in this thread) its 24" barrel and the rifling is 26". Do you know off hand if that should be fine for both heavy and light gr 44 mag? Obviously I will test.

Factory ammo is made to x velocity and they sell it to ya whether or not your gun shoots it accurately. If your gun shoots factory into 2” at 50 yards and you are happy, you likely will be happy with about anything you can make up at the reloading bench

This was probably the biggest realization I had that made me think about reloading. I have only started shooting about 2 months ago. I've shot guns since I was a kid (on land in the boonies) but it was never in a controlled target-shooting setting. Then, I lived in California for very long where dealing with all that made me look elsewhere for hobbies. I then got into lever guns 2 months ago and bought a number of very specific ones that I like. My fondness for lever action far exceeds all other guns I've shot by an entire order of magnitude.

I go each weekend working on accuracy at 25, 50. Using factory ammo I suppose I always thought I must be somewhat of a not very good shot. I'm not a BAD shot (I can shoot my henry 22 @ 200 yard steel targets while standing, using iron sights, and hit maybe 3 out of 5 times). But also at 50 and 100, unless I'm using AR15 with ACOG I don't even bother scoring them because it's not consistent enough.

Then, I got a Winchester 1873 and tried shooting reloaded .38 special loads (reloaded by someone else) and that greatly changed my perspective. It was so insanely accurate that it felt like it changed my perspective entirely. I realized that, while I'm definitely no sharpshooter, I was actually a lot more accurate than I was giving myself credit for. I was now shooting pretty solid groups whereas before I could have entire misses off the paper. Now I realized perhaps these other guns are capable of similar, but need more tuned ammunition... so that's kind of my hope with starting.

I know you have typed quite a bit already so no pressure (thank you for all your replies)... but what might be a high level overview of the process of how I'm actually to find these sweet spots?

I can only shoot on weekends so that makes things a bit of a pain for experimenting. I bought 500x brass, about 5 different powders, and about 5 sample packs of bullets. My plan was to pick just 1 bullet, 1 powder and load 20 of them at starting charge. And then increase by a bit and load another 20... and repeat this process up until im 50% to the max charge weight.

There are however a lot of variables (bullet grains/brands, powder brand/charge). I would imagine if it were like other hobbies I have where refining is required, you try to make the largest changes first which produce the largest variance (perhaps changing bullet and keeping powder consistent), but I have no idea if that applies here, or what order to do them in.

That may be a poor method, but I haven't really found any information on a good logistical controlled process for experimentation.

Also, is 25 yards too close to do this? I bought a chronograph, and i do have an astigmatism so if I'm really going for accuracy I imagine I should look at accuracy at 25.. but if its too close to show variation I will go to 50.

[JoeJames]

Congratulations on figuring out that sometimes factory ammo my not be accurate. I figure that due to potential liability at least where pistol ammo is concerned the ammo companies go for the lowest common denominator - bullet diameter = smaller diameter = less pressure and fewer law suits. I have shot very little factory 44 Special ammo, but my own ammo with my home cast bullets is much more accurate - same for 38 Special at least for my home cast swc loads, and certainly for my 32S&W loads.

I test and work up all my loads at either 25 yards or lately at 15 yards due to my 71 year old eyes. That's for 308, 556, and all the pistol ammo I work up. BTW when working up a load I start at a fairly minimum recommended charge (per the manuals) and slowly go up. Example with 44 Special I started with 5 rounds or so loaded with @ 6.2 or so grains of Unique, then 5 rounds at 6.4, then 6.5 - all with a cast .430 240 grain SWC. I found with hard cast swc's - 6.5 grains gave the best group and for my softer cast .430 6.8 grains were best; at least for my Ruger BH. Both chronographed at 894 fps, which I think is the sweet spot for my Ruger.

[Bazoo]

I haven’t any idea on the twist rate and bullet weight for 44s. I can’t remember now. A lot of people poopoo a 44 gun if it won’t shoot 300 grain bullets. Stick to 270s and don’t fret it, if you like everything else about your gun and that’s your case.

The way I’d go about it in your case would be to do a combination of experimentation and plinking ammo. I’d certainly do a few bullets powder combos to try. But after the first attempt, if you have any success, that is, one of the tested combos is accurate enough to satisfy an itchy trigger finger, I’d load a few boxes of those to have for plinking. That way you can test a few loads each time, but still have a fun time shooting and not worrying about it.

There ain’t anything wrong with testing at 25 or 50 yards. But like I mentioned with the wadcutter, you can have accuracy at close range, that doesn’t hold at longer range. So you could have cloverleaf groups at 25 or 50 and 6” at 100. But with a known to others decent bullet and powder charge, I’d guess you would be likely to not have that issue. Testing is the start of making a good load, proving is when you try it from various ranges and conditions to verify it.

I use a 3 ring binder. Mark a sheet of paper for each bullet I use. I record each powder and charge weight I try, what range, and if it was good or bad or needs further testing. When I am having a bad hand or eye day, I hold off the testing and just plink. And I make note of to retest. I also record leading, or lack of it. Recoil level, smoke (not that smoke will cause me not to use an otherwise good load). How it hits on paper vs other loads, as in if it shoots high or low. Sight settings. I also record changes to loading technique such as different size expander. Sometimes I save targets and cut them to fit my binder. Or tack them on my wall like a kid, if I’m proud of the groups.

When I test loads, I usually use an index card with the load info, in a ziploc bag with my test ammo. I write details on the index card as I test. Then I transfer that into my binder when I get home. For me, home is from the back of my property to the front. So I do things somewhat different because I’m blessed with my own range.


Most reloading books recommend just loading starting charges for a while before testing loads. Part of that reason is because of safety from a new loader standpoint. But, they don’t mention this, but I will. Part of the reason that’s a good idea is because you will not have the best technique to start. Your reloading skill will improve after a while, and then, you’ll want to retest all the loads you did. In other words, It’s possible you will have a great load but not recognize it for bad loading technique in the beginning.

[Bazoo]

I haven’t loaded a lot of cast that I didn’t cast myself. But I have a friend that buys cast. I seen some pretty badly cast bullets in that bag. Rounded bands, and sized excessively. I’m surprised he has anything similar to accuracy with those bullets. That is likely one reason the reloads you had shot well, better quality control.

Another reason is, your gun could prefer cast over jacketed or those reloads hit a sweet spot for velocity or bullet weight, diameter, hardness, or shape. I’d start by trying to duplicate those if you have any details of the load or bullet.