is Solar worth the money?

[Bogart]

1) $95 / $110 depending on time of year (Edit to say my electric rate has gone up considerably not sure how much but somewhere around 50%
2) Don't quite remember but something like 95% minimum, if I get a chance I'll pull out the paperwork and get back to you on this one
From my quote "Solar modules carry a standard 25-30 year production warranty and a solar electric system that is designed, installed, and maintained properly can last more than 40 years."
3) Supposed to still work but loose a small percentage of output 2 to 3% a year after 25 years if I remember right

[Agent1187]

I'm in central WI, and the only way I could make solar a financially viable proposition was to install it myself.

So 3.5 years ago I put up an 8kw ground mount system for $9k out of pocket (and received $3k back as a Federal tax credit).

I generally generate and use 10-11,000 kwhr/year. My utility net-metering agreement is monthly, so excess generation is credited at wholesale power rates or I pay for my net power usage. Generally I get ~$5-10 credit toward my $25 connection fee 8 months, break even 2 months, and use $40-60 of power during each of the 2 deep winter months. On a simple math basis, I am looking at a 5-6 year break-even.

This is strictly grid-tie, and I do have an 8kw propane generator for the well and other basics during an outage. Way more affordable than a battery system.

[clearwater]

Local power company sells at retail and buys solar from customers at wholesale. During some of the high demand times, think summer afternoons with lots of air conditioner use, the solar produced by customers helps all.

Cars with batteries can be a backup for households too. A charged Tesla can power a house for a couple of days and still have some juice for a trip. My opinion of Tesla is not high, but it is an example of possibilities. If you want to be part of a smart grid, micro or otherwise, the car battery can be a buffer and storage device for all.

Dams- you can use it for power and keep it full or use it for flood control and keep it empty. Or some of both. Many dams, including those considered for removal, are at the end of their designed lifespan and there are no plans to replace them. It is really a kind of infrastructure everyone should be able to get behind but is receiving no attention.

Nuclear- they are still arguing about where to put the waste. Their best solution (which hasn't been implemented since it is not so great) is to irretrievably bury it underground, near a large city's water supply. And get it there by train, exposed to accident and sabotage.

Seems like electricity storage is a key to all this. Perhaps hydrogen?

[uscra112]

Except in the Southwest, the highest demand times turn out to be in winter, not summer. The ERCOT blackout a couple of years ago was partly due to the large number of heat pumps used in Texas. As the temperature dropped, the heat pumps all switched on their resistance coils when the ambient went too low for them to function. On top of the windmills dropping out due to the weather. Gas delivery to the gas turbine plants was also interrupted. One major bit of regulatory craziness is that the EPA has forced gas suppliers to run the pipeline booster compressors electrically. Used to be that they were driven by big IC engines that burned gas siphoned from the line, so they didn't shut down in a blackout.

Nuclear could be almost waste-free if Molten-Salt Thorium Reactors replaced the pressurized-water reactors we have today. MSTRs essentially burn their own waste. This technology is a generation old - not having implemented it ten years ago is criminal, IMHO.

Heinlein postulated an extremely energy-dense storage device called a "Shipstone", but nobody's even hit 1% of his fantasy with battery technology, so far. I don't think anybody ever will.

A handy and economical way of using hydrogen is to bind a few hydrogen atoms to a lesser number of carbon atoms. It's popularly called gasoline. Natural gas is CH4, so it works well too.

[clearwater]

[QUOTE

A handy and economical way of using hydrogen is to bind a few hydrogen atoms to a lesser number of carbon atoms. It's popularly called gasoline. Natural gas is CH4, so it works well too.[/QUOTE]

Good one.

I know hydrogen can be made by stripping it from natural gas or propane and also by using electricity and water, but can those processes by reversed? Can you make gasoline or natural gas from hydrogen?

[uscra112]

https://www.amazon.com/THORIUM-energ...Q%3D%3D&sr=8-1

He goes through all of this is some detail, but in layman's language.

Pure hydrogen is difficult and dangerous to handle. To store useful amounts for vehicles it has to be under very high pressure, which requires a heavy container, and a robust pressure regulator. Weight penalty as bad or worse than the EV batteries used now. With the added risk of leaks.

[clearwater]

Energy companies are looking at hydrogen as a way to store and transport power from solar, wind and other sites. I have been told it can even be sent thru the same pipelines cross country as the current petroleum products.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/30/rene...ceo-says-.html
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcell...ogen-pipelines

Here it looks like Glassification will finally be attempted as a method for dealing with nuclear waste.

https://www.spokesman.com/stories/20...ctive-waste-m/

[Texas by God]

Will solar panels stand up to large hail?
We get a lot of that.
The ugly, "ruin the horizon view" wind generators have reduced my electricity bill exactly 0% since T. Boone Pickens and others pushed them on us and others.
My electricity bill averages $400-$500 a month in the summer( April- October).

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

[uscra112]

Under the Byzantine rules initiated in the '90s to control the electricity markets, wind generators sometimes derive as little as 2% of their revenue from actually selling electricity to the grid operators. The rest is direct subsidies, and indirect subsidies paid by grid operators, (and therefor by you, the consumer). Angwin has the details in her book.

[lancem]

Will solar panels stand up to large hail?
We get a lot of that.
The ugly, "ruin the horizon view" wind generators have reduced my electricity bill exactly 0% since T. Boone Pickens and others pushed them on us and others.
My electricity bill averages $400-$500 a month in the summer( April- October).

Sent from my SM-A716U using Tapatalk

I have one panel that was hit years ago and the glass is shattered but the panel still works. I have seen some that have had holes blasted in them from hail. Where I'm at hail storms typically come from the north, with the panels facing south I think they tend to miss taking direct hits.

[MaryB]

My solar panels have survived 1" hail that was being driven by 60mph winds... shattered 2 house windows in that storm...

Hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the issue, it actually bonds with the metal and changes its composition...

[jonp]

My solar panels have survived 1" hail that was being driven by 60mph winds... shattered 2 house windows in that storm...

Hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the issue, it actually bonds with the metal and changes its composition...

Theory is nice but real world experience like this is invaluable. Thanks, MaryB

If the cost of burying lines to a house is even close to solar then solar it is. Off grid is always better in my book.

[fixit]

All of the pie in the sky promises of "renewable" energy are, currently, based on heavy subsidies, paid for by heavy taxation! As I've said before, if it needs a subsidy to be viable, it isn't. If it can stand without one, then run with it!

[rancher1913]

so where are all these "subsidies" a couple of you want to get all po'd about, i sure never got any with my system or are you just painting with a broad brush.

[uscra112]

If you didn't get yours, you missed the boat.

Or maybe not.....

https://www.energy.gov/eere/solar/ho...-photovoltaics

[uscra112]

Hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the issue, it actually bonds with the metal and changes its composition...

I know about hydrogen embrittlement (Strength of Materials 101) but I'm wondering where it comes into play in this context.

[MaryB]

I know about hydrogen embrittlement (Strength of Materials 101) but I'm wondering where it comes into play in this context.

Hit the extent of my knowledge on that, need a metallurgist to explain why. I have read stories saying that is the problem with hydrogen... There is a new form of storage where they bod the hydrogen with another material and release it via a chemical process. While bonded it is non-explosive and much safer to handle.I didn't deep dive into that because it is new tech not currently on the market.

[1hole]

All of the pie in the sky promises of "renewable" energy are, currently, based on heavy subsidies, paid for by heavy taxation! As I've said before, if it needs a subsidy to be viable, it isn't. If it can stand without one, then run with it!

At least some power companies get their tax subsidies directly from the government, no customer attention is required.

"Free" electrical power ain't cheep. The value of the best of cell fields and wind farms depends on the population density; few city/town dwellers have anywhere near the required acres to collect any significant "renewable" battery powered electricity.

Like in electric cars, good but exotic batteries are costly and they have limited service life if they are used often or not. Gathering large enough battery banks (and charging systems) to make any real difference in operational use and real costs requires both safe storage space and frequent maintainance. And the batteries themselves aren't environmentally "clean" to make or maintain either but greeny-weinies and their pollyticians don't know that.

Windmills suffer from wind damage, they have very limited life and their mechanical systems demand quite a bit of individual and costly maintinance to achieve that.

Solar cells are very susceptable to a serious loss of efficiency due to surface dirt/dust/bird droppings. The labor costs of keeping the face of the cells clean is high.

But, other than that, IMO, tax subsidized free electrical power is a real deal every time ... for the sellers.

For the last 25 years my own fall back electrical system has been a portable 2KW Honda generator, a long extension cord and a 5 gallon bucket of fresh gasoline. It has earned my trust; it starts easy, it's long been paid for and has never failed me even when our power outage ran a couple of dark, stormy weeks.

My red generator, a gas cook stove and a set of LP gas logs in the fireplace, along with a good book and a couple of good coats/thick socks and some snuggles with a friendly woman, make occasional extended winter power outages survivable.

To each his own but I know more than a little bit about electricity. There's NO WAY I'd even try currently popular "renewable" electric power systems in hopes of saving money at home!

[uscra112]

@MaryB: I thought you were talking about hydrogen embrittlement in solar systems.

We have had a hydrogen transport liquid which is hydrogen bonded to another material (carbon) for over 100 years. It's popularly known as gasoline.

[45_Colt]

There is also NH3...

45_Colt