Chronographed - Underwood 38 Spl +P “Keith” 158 gr SWC

[ddixie884]

Wouldn't you agree that there are 38 Special revolvers out there that couldn't take a steady diet of those loads? Makes me wonder how they came about.

They came about because there has always been people with .38spls who would like to have a box or 2 of "WARM" loads for SD, HD, repelling boarders or animal protection. It has developed into quite the industry...

[TD1886]

They came about because there has always been people with .38spls who would like to have a box or 2 of "WARM" loads for SD, HD, repelling boarders or animal protection. It has developed into quite the industry...

Sure has developed into quite an industry: 38 Special to 38 Special Plus P to 38 Special Plus P Plus.

[RJM52]

My apologies...that should have been directed to JRD....

[JRD]

My statement: "Just bear in mind that not all frames of a given size are actually the same. For instance a S&W K frame Model 10 and a K frame Model 19 frame are not the same in terms of frame strength." is information directly obtained from contacts who previously worked at S&W.
Specifically with carbon steel frames, frames such as the Model 19 and Model 29 got an extra heat treating process that non-magnum frames did not (example Model 10 and Model 25). Cylinders in carbon steel guns were heat treated no matter what so a 10 vs 19 cylinder difference is just the chamber depth.

Shooting 40% over pressure "+P" 38 Specials in a non-magnum rated gun isn't going to cause the cylinder to burst. But a steady diet of excessively spicy rounds is definitely going to accelerate endshake, cylinder window stretching, centerpin hole elongation, timing problems, etc. (All the things an armorer knows to look for to tell if a frame is worn out.)
I've seen (not in this thread), references to hot rodding 45 Colt Model 25's- because the same frame is used for 44 Magnum Model 29's- except people with intimate knowledge know it isn't the same frame.

I looked on Buffalo Bore's on website under their FAQ's. There is a question on 380 Auto +P (which doesn't exist in SAAMI). Granted we're talking 38 Special, but the concept carries over.
"Can I shoot your +P 380 Auto ammo in my LCP?
Yes you can. Gun makers often warn against using any ammo that is not SAAMI spec. and there is no SAAMI spec. for the 380 auto +P cartridge. Gun makers do this to protect themselves from any liability in our super-litigious American society.
Buffalo Bore and others have tested our 380 auto +P ammo in the LCP and many LCP owners currently shoot our +P ammo in their LCPs and we've never heard of any problems from the "power" or "pressure" of the ammo, but obviously the use of +P ammo in these little guns should be limited to just enough to test reliable feeding and point of impact, then carry the ammo in your LCP in the event you need it, but don't go plinking with it. "

So even Buffalo Bore is saying don't shoot their stuff in large volumes. On the other side of the coin, if someone has deep pockets and makes these extra spicy "40% over +P" rounds their high volume practice fodder, the gun manufacturers wouldn't be happy with warranty claims of their gun wearing prematurely out from "factory +P ammo".

[bisleyfan41]

I happen to use the Underwood load in a 6.5" Blackhawk that shoots it better than just about any other factory load. While the pressures might seem high, remember many of these mid-size guns you're worried about are also available chambered in 9mm. Which operates at a much higher pressure that 28k.
Ultimately each shooter has to choose what they use in their guns.

God gave each of us a brain with which to make educated decisions. And while modern society seems to reflect a diminished capacity in this regard, I think it's great that companies like Underwood and BB market loads like this. They are supremely useful.

If you don't want to use them in your guns, that's fine. Would you rather they weren't produced. The shooting world would be poorer without companies like this who offer high performance options.

[JRD]

My personal feeling is that companies that sell 38 Special +P ammo that is 40% over SAAMI spec should not label it as such. They should label it differently or add warnings that is not appropriate to use in all 38 Special guns because it doesn't conform to the SAAMI industry standard. While most of the people on this board are well informed enough to know which 38 Special guns are stout enough to use with the Buffalo Bore and Underwood loads that Larry tested, the average person likely is not.

Perhaps I come off as overly conservative on this topic, but I look at this with a hint of corporate perspective from having dealt with lawyers for consumer products in my professional career. Big companies need to design for the lowest possible denominator in their customers and offer profuse warnings in owner's manuals to help protect them from liability. Perhaps it's less of a concern for smaller companies.

Think of it in another light. Suppose there was a company that made extra potent gasoline that boosts your car's horsepower substantially, and it did it by increasing combustion pressures inside the cylinders- and yet they still sold it as regular 87 octane gas. Furthermore in this parable, that certain vehicles could burn this fuel with no problem, but that it's effect on certain models would likely cause premature wear. Some gearheads who know engines would probably love to use this hypothetical fuel in their muscle cars, but for the average uninformed person who may drive some cheap compact coupe, his engine may not stand up to repeated fill-ups of extra potent gas and he doesn't know any better because it's labelled the same as standard gas.

I'll rest my case here.

[Hi-Speed]

Thank you Larry for the tests. I’m finally coming back on-line…been doing other things for the past half year, sorry for finally getting around

[RJM52]

...glad to see you back!

Always enjoyed your tests...Bob

[bisleyfan41]

From BB's website page on their load tested above. Please note the last line:

"38 SPL +P OUTDOORSMAN
158 gr. Hard Cast Keith @ 1,250 fps
20 Round Box

ITEM 20H

PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition."

The actual manufacturer, who would be liable for damages BTW, couldn't be clearer.