Any Reason for +P Ammo

[cainttype]

A quick check at Underwood’s showed 38 Super and 45 Colt being available in +P offerings.

[44MAG#1]

A quick check at Underwood’s showed 38 Super and 45 Colt being available in +P offerings.

What is SAAMI specs on the +P that has been listed? Other than the 9MM, 38 Special and 45 Auto?

[cainttype]

I’m not sure if SAAMI has any specs for the oddball +Ps…. IIRC, +P was mentioned as a 10% increase over standard levels, and +P+ had no “standards” at all.

I don’t normally buy any factory fodder so much of it holds no interest.. I don’t pay much attention to most of it because of that.

[44MAG#1]

Fair question. In Marty's early years as a "meatball surgeon" at a firebase in Vietnam, doing his best to stabilize combat wounded to survive their air evac to a higher level of care he was issued an M1911A1 pistol with ball ammo.

In combat areas he said they carried all the time due to risk of infiltrators intending to kill US and ARVN medical personnel. I do not know whether he actually ever had to use his .45 in anger, but he had full confidence in it.

He related to me an incident where he used the pistol as an impact weapon "to sedate an emotionally disturbed casualty" where it was quite effective such that the subject recovered to be exfilled to a higher command authority for court martial. "The MPs would have simply killed the bastard, but he deserved due process.'

So Fackler had confidence in the old 1911 45 Auto with the 230 grain meatball load?
What would he possibly carry today if he were alive?

[17nut]

Yes!

So the 40 S(hort) And W(eak) could could pose at the 10mm Auto's weak and anemic cousin.

[44MAG#1]

Yes!

So the 40 S(hort) And W(eak) could could pose at the 10mm Auto's weak and anemic cousin.

In my Glock M27 a 200 grain Hornady XTP and a 200 grain cast I use will run with Hodgdons data 900 fps for the Hornady and 930 fps with the cast. This is actually chronographed.
I know, I know, I know I know that VIRGEL will say this means nothing but how fast would you have to push a 147 grain 9MM to equal the same momentum. I know, I know, I know, I know VIRGEL will shoot momentum down as being insignificant.
No need to go there.

[charlie b]

So Fackler had confidence in the old 1911 45 Auto with the 230 grain meatball load?
What would he possibly carry today if he were alive?

I would not try to make any conclusions from his choice. He was carrying a pistol that was readily available in the war zone he was in. If he was stationed with a British unit he probably would have carried a High Power (9mm). And both would have been loaded with the issue ball ammo. If he was at an AF base he might have had a choice of a .38 revolver, but, again, 1911's were far more common.

I would also not be surprised if he did not carry anything when not in uniform.

[M-Tecs]

I would also not be surprised if he did not carry anything when not in uniform.

That would be fairly safe assumption. Different times and different threat levels than we face today.

[44MAG#1]

So he didn't have any confidence in the 1911 45 Auto with the 230 gr meatball load?

[M-Tecs]

So he didn't have any confidence in the 1911 45 Auto with the 230 gr meatball load?

What leads you to believe that? Currently when you're in the military with a rank lower than a General you carry what they issue you period. In the past it was allowed, or a blind eye looked away.

[44MAG#1]

Just because the Military issues it doesn't mean he had confidence or didn't have confidence in it. Did he or didn't he.
What did he carry or would have carried in civilian life?
If he carried in civilian life what did he carry and what was the ammo?

[Outpost75]

So he didn't have any confidence in the 1911 45 Auto with the 230 gr meatball load?

My post said he had FULL confidence in the .45 issued. Your comprehension is faulty.

When he was stationed at the Presidio of San Francisco the Letterman Institute was inside a secure area. Marty had quarters on post and no reason to carry. Post 9/11 gate guards had M9s for badge of authority and an AT4 available within reach for positive one-shot stops of VBIEDs.

[44MAG#1]

My post said he had FULL confidence in the .45 issued. Your comprehension is faulty.

When he was stationed at the Presidio of San Francisco the Letterman Institute was inside a secure area. Marty had quarters on post and no reason to carry. Post 9/11 gate guards had M9s for badge of authority and an AT4 available within reach for positive one-shot stops of VBIEDs.

I was actually asking M Tecs. Just didn't quote him.

[pettypace]

In my Glock M27 a 200 grain Hornady XTP and a 200 grain cast I use will run with Hodgdons date 900 fps for the Hornady and 930 fps with the cast. This is actually chronographed.
I know, I know, I know I know that VIRGEL will say this means nothing but how fast would you have to push a 147 grain 9MM to equal the same momentum. I know, I know, I know, I know VIRGEL will shoot momentum down as being insignificant.
No need to go there.

Let me read that again slowly just to make sure I understand what you're getting at...

I know, I know, I know, I know VIRGEL will shoot momentum down as being insignificant.

Tell the truth, MagMan. Did VIRGEL really, really, really, really shoot your momentum down as being insignificant?"

No need to go there.

Of course we need to go there. VIRGEL might be sick -- maybe caught a virus. (There's a lot of that going around.)

But let's see what VIRGEL actually does say about that 200 grain .40 caliber cast bullet load you mentioned:



Nope. VIRGEL says your Power Factor (just momentum by another name) is 186. Nothing insignificant about that!

[44MAG#1]

I know that I saw it the first time I played with it.
I know how power factor is figured
I know what power factor is. It is momentum. Bullet weight times velocity dives by 1000 to reduce it down.
I know some IDPA shooters. USPSA shooters too.
Believe it or not I have played with VIRGEL too and your monte carlo thing too.

[44MAG#1]

https://www.ccidpa.org/idpa-power.html

[44MAG#1]

Pound seconds momentum is velocity times bullet weight divided by 225218.
225218 is 7000 times gravity 32.1740.

[M-Tecs]

I was actually asking M Tecs. Just didn't quote him.

How would I know what is personal thoughts about 230 grain ball ammo are? For that matter why would I care?

G.I. 45 ball has a long history of actual usage. Data from actual usage has shown that 230grain FMJ .45 ACP loads actually provide about 56-62% one shot stops depending on the study. Change the ball out to good quality hollow points and that goes up to well over 90%. Same for 9mm ball. Ball is in the mid-30% and in the low 90% will good hollow points.

Firsthand small game shooting with 45 Ball and Speer 200 grain JHP flying ashtrays out Colt Gold Cup in the 70's showed a significant performance differences between ball and JHP's. They were impressive in the 45 ACP but they were breathtaking out of my 45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk at max velocities. They made the 357 125 grain JHP LE loads look anemic when shooting unopened confiscated beer cans.

When I deployed to combat zones I was only issued ball per normal rules of engagement. When the threat was anti-hijacking or anti-terrorist we would be issued hollow points for the 9mm's.

Ball ammo is never my first choice for SD as there are better choices for that application. That being said I have fully confidence that if need I could have got the job done with issued ball in the 38 Special, 9mm or 5.56. I was never issued a 45 in a combat zone.

[44MAG#1]

In my above posts I said bullet weight and not mass. I used mass one time and got a severe scolding telling me mass cannot be weighed. So I didn't make that mistake again.

[44MAG#1]

Energy can be figured by velocity times velocity divided by 450436 times bullet weight.
450436 is 7000 times 64.348.