Modern Combat and the 30-30

[Jumptrap]

The Russians bought 300,00 1895 Winchester rifles in 7.62c54R, with about 293,000 of them being delivered prior to the start of the Revolution. Wouldn't we like to have a big batch of them show up here?

Hehe.....well, I own 2 Winchester 95's...both repro's...one on '06 and the other in 35 Whelen and for a HUNTING rifle, they are sufficient. But as a combat rifle......not no, but HELL NO! Those Russian 95's were discarded by the thousands as soon Ivan could find a replacement Mosin laying around. Why? The '95 action is too complicated for military use....it's gets full of mud and crud and ties up to easily and they are very slow to reload.....the cartridge is loaded with the shell going in ass first and then tipped over horizontal and then pressed down in the magazine. Such an exercise while enemies are eating your lunch isn't something to be looked forward too. I honestly don't know how the Czar and his minions got suckered into lever actioned muskets.....but it was a marketing bonanza on Winchester's part.

I am quite fond of lever rifles, cut my teeth on a '92 Winchester in 38-40. There must be 10 assorted ones around the house now and several more have passed through my hands.

Prison guards, the Lone Ranger and the county High Sheriff aside......lever rifles are not combat guns. Have you ever yanked an extractor out of a Marlin 336 due to a stubborn empty? I have. Have you ever tied up a lever because the OAL of the cartridge was a hair too long? I have. Have you ever seen a tube magazine rendered useless because it was struck hard enough to stove it in? I have.

Now, if it was all you had and it was either a levergun or your ass....yeah, I'd say you could make do well enough. And as ugly as they are......ugly is as ugly does...the SKS is 20X superior to a 30-30 lever rifle/carbine as a combat gun...because that was what it was designed for and it does that feat rather well.

[Bret4207]

I believe the original post was just that Jump, lever or nuthin'. Personally, given the choice, I;'m all for letting the tacticool mall ninjas shoot it out while I hide a few miles away.

[shdwlkr]

Now if you are talking about having the choice of which firearm to have I will still take a M14 with 30 round mag and still feel that I have the best firearm. Why because hitting you with 147 grains moving at around 2800 fps is going to ruin you day even if I am off by just a little. Now that 55 or 62 grain pee shooter that the black gun guys are so happy with doesn't compare at all. I am not saying that you can't hit your target with the black rifle just they don't suit me and I played with them for 7 years and never was impressed. Played with the ak 47 which did impress me as to what it would do and how crappy the ammo could be and still fire in the weapon. We used to do a demo with them with one laying in a tray of muddy and sandy water you couldn't even find it by looking. We would reach in pull it out and open the action slush some of that muddy water through it and then reach in and pull out a mag of corroded ammo and slush it around and load up and fire the whole mag. Try that with your black guns and you will be dead.

[Jumptrap]

I believe the original post was just that Jump, lever or nuthin'. Personally, given the choice, I;'m all for letting the tacticool mall ninjas shoot it out while I hide a few miles away.

Hehehe! I was just thinking...somebody ought to write a book on those backyard tacktikool bozos and their webfooted kinfolks...probably make the best seller list and then be made into box office sellout at the movies......starring Adam Sandler and Randy Quaid.......hehehe!

In your former ventures, you may have been in a Gunfight at the OK Corral....but I've so far escaped the pleasure of such business. I had a man tell me he was going to kill me once upon a time and I told him he'd best make sure I was dead if he tried it. Obviously, he didn't. So...that's the extent of my near combat escapades......I reckon a lever gun would have worked well enough in that situation.

I thought the thread started on using a lever as a combat gun. They'd just never hold up under those circumstances. I read somewhere...maybe in American Rifleman....a piece on the Russians and what few units were issued those 95 muskets. The severe cold and mud rendered them useless and cold fingers all but prevented them from reloading them.....the troops discarded them ASAP! With all the Mosins the Russians sold off....you'd think they'd dumped the 95' on the surplus market as well.....if there were many of them left. I'd bet most went into Stalin's smelters and were converted into T34 tanks.

[rhead]

I believe the original post was just that Jump, lever or nuthin'. Personally, given the choice, I;'m all for letting the tacticool mall ninjas shoot it out while I hide a few miles away.

+1 I don't recall having a real good time last time I tried it, and I was a lot younger then, I think I would wait till the shootin died down and then decide if is should find a way to shoot him in the back or just keep on laying low. It ain't a game it is all about being alive when it is over.

[Sixgun Symphony]

IMO, a lever rifle is adequate for civilian needs (hunting & defense), but not for military use.

My weapon of choice is the M4 carbine w/ M68 (Aimpoint) for street fighting and the M14 rifle for open country.

[KTN]

The severe cold and mud rendered them useless and cold fingers all but prevented them from reloading them.....the troops discarded them ASAP! With all the Mosins the Russians sold off....you'd think they'd dumped the 95' on the surplus market as well.....if there were many of them left. I'd bet most went into Stalin's smelters and were converted into T34 tanks.

Russians send M95 rifles to Finland during WWI, to troops that were not fighting in war. Russians didn't like M95 because it was less practical to shoot and load in prone position or in trench/foxhole, than MN M-91.
When Finland got independence 1917, all rifles were confiscated to Finnish army.
Most of M95's delivered to Russia ended up here, and many are still used as hunting rifles. Many of them rebarreled to 8.2x53R or 9.3X53R.


Kaj

[MakeMineA10mm]

This is a GREAT thread. Lots of fun topics. Here's my $.02:

1. I'd HATE to be shot by a 30-30, wearing body armor or not...

2. Loaded with the LeveRevolution spitzers, the 30-30 is a good 250yrd + cartridge on a man-sized target.

3. In short-range/urban settings, a pistol-caliber (esp. 41Mag, 44Mag, or 45Colt) lever-gun would be a very awesome weapon, especially if you are partnered up with someone and you have fire discipline to cover each other while reloading.

4. With all the talk of John Wayne movies (Rio Bravo is tied with Man Who Shot Liberty Valance as my favorite JW movie, btw), as much as I love the Duke, I think Red Dawn is a more appropriate screen-connection to the issue at hand. Remember the kids up in the mountains? They sawed off their shotguns and used their bolt guns to kill Russians and Cubans, until they had collected enough REAL COMBAT weapons to re-equip themselves with AKs and RPGs.

5. HENCE, my last point, which I cannot say any better than BRYAN:

Had to comment on this issue. As a soldier and rifleman, I am sure that I could use any rifle effectively, but some do some jobs better. While its fun to wax nostalgic about fine leverguns, anyone carrying one onto the modern battlefield would do himself and his buddies a disservice. A good rifleman may hold his own with his levergun against a wet behind the ears recruit with an M-4, but a trained soldier will take out a lot of cowboys in a very short time. This notion that all soldiers armed with M-16's and varients "spray and pray" is not accurate. There are those times when the ability to get a lot of lead in the air, to get the other teams head down long enough for you to find better real estate, will save the day. The M-4 with a CCO or ACOG, paired with a rifleman can put sustained, accurate fire on target that a levergun can't compare to. When I went on patrol in Sadre City, I would have felt naked as a newborn babe with a levergun. For home defense, stateside duty, basic survival needs a levergun has a lot to offer, but not on the modern battlefield.

BTW, BRYAN, THANK YOU, SIR, for your service. Your work in the sandbox has made combat and casualties happen "over there" instead of over here, and I might add, at a casualty rate that is FAR better in our favor than the media would let us know...

So, that means my overall opinion is that with teamwork lever-guns can be an awesome psuedo-military weapon, but not as awesome as a good semi-auto, detachable-box-magazine, assault rifle.

I have a Sig556, several ARs, a couple AKs, an M-1A, some Garands and M-1 Carbines, and I think considering all things, the 6.8 SPC cartridge out-classes BOTH the 5.56mm and 7.62x39 (and all the others) as a modern combat cartridge. While 6.8 doesn't out-perform the 7.62 NATO, it does come close in effectiveness and is nearly identical in ballistics, while giving a larger combat load of rounds carried for same weight. (I count weapon weight as well as just the difference in cartridge weight, something that most 7.62 advocates don't do, but there is typically a significant difference in weapon size and weight between the 7.62 Nato and 6.8SPC rifles.)

[pmeisel]

An experienced carpenter can use most any hammer of the right size effectively. Amateurs can't keep up even with the best hammer.

So it is with most tools.

[softpoint]

I shoot both black rifles and leverguns. I like both. One of my favorite AR rifles is a 7.62X 39. It is accurate, fast. AR style rifles fit me well for offhand shooting . I also like my leverguns. They are neither as fast or quite as accurate as my black rifles.I shoot the leverguns more, thoughI wouldn't use one as a combat arm if one of my clip fed AR's was available. The 30/30 would certainly be potent enough.

[Old Ironsights]

...Wow. I'm no wiz, I miss plenty. But last weekend we had our levergun silhouette match. I think it was my sixth or seventh.

Using my .38-55 Winchester I knocked down all ten chickens. At 50 yards. Offhand. One reload.

Sheesssshhhh. What posers.

Cat

I generally get out about once a month to shoot Sillouhette... with my M92 .357 - fixed iron sights, offhand, 180gr @ 1800.

I have a little trouble with the 175m Turkeys, and am about 80% on the 50m chickens, but pretty regularly run the 100m pigs & 200m rams.

But then, the Rossi IS a rifle zeroed at 100 and not a bird gun...

[handyrandyrc]

I love my 30-30.

But watching this video made me re-think necessity of having a semi-auto for combat. It's a MUST.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=121_1246978752

Look at how they were able to keep sustained fire on the enemy while being able to move in. No way a guy could have made it out as well with a levergun in that situation.

[StarMetal]

The progression of military firearms development had evolved towards improvement. Look how black powder arms progressed. Smooth bore to rifled bores, from glowing wick, to matchbox, to flintlock, to percussion cap, and finally to contained cartridge. If the Revolutionary and Civil war were fought with one side having M 16's (and being trained how to use them) what would have the outcome been? Would it have been different? Would the side that had the M16's killed more of their enemy? The progression of firearms had always been towards more fire power, more accuracy. To try to take an 1800's designed lever action rifle and bring it up to todays combat level is nuts.

Joe

[rhead]

The progression of military firearms development had evolved towards improvement. Look how black powder arms progressed. Smooth bore to rifled bores, from glowing wick, to matchbox, to flintlock, to percussion cap, and finally to contained cartridge. If the Revolutionary and Civil war were fought with one side having M 16's (and being trained how to use them) what would have the outcome been? Would it have been different? Would the side that had the M16's killed more of their enemy? The progression of firearms had always been towards more fire power, more accuracy. To try to take an 1800's designed lever action rifle and bring it up to todays combat level is nuts.

Joe

Like in Guns of the South by Harry Turtledove?

[Bret4207]

Well, once again we're drifting off the original question. Does the 30-30 in a levergun have any utility in a modern combat scenario. The idea was if all you have is a 30-30 lever are you instant dead meat? Of course not. Is it the perfect battle weapon for organized combat operations? Of course not. If TSHTF and you and your family are armed with them and the MZB (Mutant Zombie Bikers) are armed with AR's, AK's, etc are you dead meat? Not by a long shot. In a Red Dawn scenario, guerrilla warfare, you'd still have a decent chance given a little forethought and luck./ No, we aren't talking about arming the USMC with Marlins and Winchesters and sending them into battle. But John Galt.....he might do all right.

[RU shooter]

Bret makes some points ,First we must decide the meaning of the word "combat" which I'm sure is different for many of us here with varried backgrounds. To me combat is very different than a civilian armed encounter even if its against multiple badguys. In which case I wouldnt feel I was doomed having only a leveraction rifle or carbine. If I knew waking up in the morning I was going to be in a shooting situation It wouldnt be my first choice though! But that rarely happens! most civial encounters are not more than a few shots anyways so the high capacity needs are kinda a moot point in reality .I think a good tactical plan is better than more bullets before a reload or higher MV.

[Catshooter]

I have a little trouble with the 175m Turkeys, and am about 80% on the 50m chickens, but pretty regularly run the 100m pigs & 200m rams.

)

Don't them Turkeys just suck?

I'm sure having fun shootin' this match though. What a ball.

But to get back on topic a bit, while I certainly wouldn't want to take on a squad of vets armed with M4s with my levers, breaking into my house could be a bad idea.

I think it was Cooper who said that a handful of men who knew how to work together, had good bolt actions and knew the terrain would be a terrible problem for a company.


Cat

[BuckBall]

I'd rather have a .30-30 over a .223 any day. Being in former combat and having seen what a .223 can do, really I always hoped to carry something bigger. The .30-30 does have more knock down power than the little .22 cal and if you compare a lever to an AR, as I did with a career Marine friend, the lever was more capable. Of course there are pros and cons to each, however, I was able to hit my target more accurately than the AR, loading time was quicker too. If you think about the play by play actions of loading a magazine into an AR, you will see that moving hand to pouch, opening pouch, pulling mag out, loading mag, racking chamber and aiming takes time, and I can load 6 rounds and be on target way before my friend. Then there are the sites on a Marlin or Winny which are lower than that of the AR and therefore you gain quicker on target acquisition. On top of this, the wound profiles from a 62 grain bullet compared to a 150 grain or 170 grain shows more trauma than what the 62 can deliver.

Would I feel under gunned with just a lever? Absolutely not. Of course if that is all you have like I do, then you learn to use that weapon in all manners and positions. If I had a choice, I'd take my old L1A1 as I used in the Operation Grandby (U.S. First Gulf War), but since I live in the states, I will use what I currently own, Marlin 336 in .30-30.

[Lead Fred]

Mt Browning said and 1936, and there is a plaque in his museum stating:

"During the entire evolution of firearms, no one has ever made a better one
Only a faster one"

The military has been going the wrong direction since the M1/M1A.

Having more lighter ammo and spraying and praying isn't the answer, only convenience.

I own two levers, both in 30-30, and I would not use them in combat.

The M1 is the best for me. Id rather be able to kill 8 times, than dump 30 and hit and or wound 5-6 times.

I own no 22 cal. Everything is 7.62 (and one 45-70)

The government is so afraid of martial firearms, they are going out of their way to
outlaw everything but hunting firearms.

Even the levergun is now a assault rifle. Check the 2008 firearms ban list that didn't go though.

As history does repeat itself. The first revolution was government troops against civilians with hunting rifles. You know how that came out.

The libcommies are so sure by outlawing all the black guns, battle rifles, anything that holds more than 5 rounds. so Their take over will be effortless.

What they will find is a nation of sharpshooters

and you know how the second revolution will end.

[Four Fingers of Death]

If all I could get my hands on was a baseball bat or a pick handle, that would be what I would use. If I could get my hands on a lever 30/30 I would use that, but while I was carrying these weapons, I would be constantly on the lookout for a combat gun. If the levers were able to cut the mustard in combat, combat troops would have used them in numbers rather that in dribs and drabs.

I was pre black stick, but I would feel ok with my Aussie made SLR (Fn FAL).