Modern Combat and the 30-30

[45&30-30]

I am not a member of the following forum, I found it on a search, and found it amusing , I thought a few others would to. If anyone has not had enough reasons, pro or con, of whether the 30-30 is a valid round for anything, including combat, then this is a good thread to help your side. Before you start it is 8 pages and last count, 179 posts.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=421537

[Bret4207]

Ah the High Road, home of countless keyboard commandos. Of course there is that 10% that seem to have their heads on straight, the rest are just dreaming of the day they can become Ahhhnold or Bruce Willis or Steven Segal........

[crabo]

It seems like in one of the off topic threads there was a state govenor that wanted to outlaw lever guns because of their rate of fire, and that was 100+ years ago.

Maybe someone knows what I am referring to.

[jh45gun]

For what its worth I would not feel undergunned with a lever 30/30. Several years ago I had an SKS which I then traded in for an AK clone. My Opinion both were crap in handleing compared to the sleek easy to carry lever gun and the 6.62x39 cartridge did not set me afire either so I got rid of the AK and later got a Model 94 1964 era. Set up with a peep sight and a Fiber optic front sight I really like it. I was with out a 30/30 for years and now I kick my self for missing out all them years just how nice the 30/30 is and how nice the Winchester/Marlin lever guns are. My first deer gun was a lever gun Marlin Glenfield which I did not keep now I wish I would have.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I do not own a 30-30... AAAAWWWWW heresy ! But I do own 38´s and 41´s and a 44-40 SRC Winny here... Would I take my lever actions into combat ? Sure would ! I would prefer a magazine loaded rifle. Even stripper clips are faster. BUT when real Combat distances and fire rates are looked at.. a lever action can keep you alive and the other feller leaking profusely.
I did have a 30-30 till last time up there but pulled that tube and mounted a 375 Winchester barrel. So I now have a switch barrel but never put the Caliber.30 back on. So if you need to throw stones it´s only a 5000 mile toss.
Mike God bless you.

[klcarroll]

A 30-30 Levergun for Combat use??? ......Certainly not out of the question!

From the standpoint of ballistics, the 30-30 round is superior to the 7.62x39 in every respect. (...And you may have noticed that the 7.62x39 is the most popular military cartridge in the World.)

In the hands of an experienced rifleman, the levergun's rate of fire is comparable to semi-auto fire. (....Forget full-auto fire in a shoulder fired personal weapon! ...It's just a noise-making "party trick"!)

....And the leverguns do offer one remarkable advantage: They are about the only action design that lets you reload without converting your weapon to a single-shot for the duration of the operation!

Kent

[MT Gianni]

From my views on the news, much to my dismay, modern combat is done from the air with missles and rockets. Armed combat occurs on a "grab and go" when a team inserts into a house to get a bad guy intel has scoped out. On occasions weapons fire is exchanged from some great distance.
I would have no problems going into a battle carrying a lever 30-30. I would like to hear from recent troops overseas if my perception on modern combat is correct. Thanks, Gianni

[EDK]

I read about half the article last night and will return to finish it tonight. The lever action has been viable since the 1860s and the 30/30 is acceptable for most usage in hunting or self defense. The jeering from the "internet/keyboard/gun shop commandos" about assorted "elderly red necks with their thutty-thutty" was pretty loud, but I think the outcome in a real world life and death situation would be kinda upsetting...and terminal...to the "techno ninjas."

My interests are primarily pistols and the MARLINS chambered for the pistol rounds. I like my 45/70 Cowboy rifles, but am starting to use my 30/30 Cowboy rifle and a 20 inch carbine a lot more. They work well and now that I have a plain base mould for them (Thanks to Garandsrus) I can shoot them a lot more cheaply. AND the more I use them, the more I appreciate them.

[sundog]

Gianni, yes, covert night air attacks, but there are still some ops that only a well trained squad of US Marines or Soldiers can handle -- like cordon and search and bldg and room clearing. That is not for the faint of heart. While I would not at all feel under gunned with a 30-30 (or better a 32 Win Spl), the lever gun would leave a little to be desired in very tight quarters in terms of operation and reloading. That is best given over to a reliable mag fed self loader, carbine or pissola -- or shotgun. I'm not advocating the M16, because I do not like it. Other than that, lever guns are fine for any 'social' engagement.

[JSnover]

For close work, sure. I think Jeff Cooper called it a "Brooklyn Special" since pistol-caliber carbines were restricted there. He liked the idea well enough to refer to leverguns chambered in 44 or 45 as "Kansas City Specials" in the same article but I can't remember why. I think it had something to do with using 45 colt or 44 special lever actions as entry weapons in urban areas.

[Slowpoke]

I believe it was the late Frank Marshall Jr that coined the phrase APPALACHIAN ASSAULT Rifle in reference to the 30-30.

"As a law enforcement or home defense gun Frank compared his Winchester to an SKS, calling it his “Appalachian Assault Rifle."

good luck

[jh45gun]

Well they were good enough for law enforcement and prison guards thats good enough for me.

[Old Ironsights]

It was the Governor of Ohio who tried to ban Assault Rifles (Henry's) back in the 1850s.

Somewhere I have an article where a guy used a 30-30 at Thunder Ranch - and did pretty well.

The Outdoor Channel just did a Positive piece on Leverguns as defensive/house-clearing guns.

IIRC the French Navy bought several thousand Win 1894s before WWI.

I also seem to remember an incident where leverguns were used to great effect in Russia or somesuch...

Personally I think as a Combat Rifle, they are better in pistol calibers, but that's just me. I like 12rds of .357...

[KCSO]

Turkey used levers for thier military till the 1880's. Personaly I carry either a Krag or a M92 in preferene to an AR, so far i have gotten along just fine and ever qual I surprise some of the kids.

[9.3X62AL]

The whole "Patrol Rifle" thing at my old agency created a lot of stress for the admin folks, and in 1999 they selected the AR-15 to replace the Mini-14s that had proven so "deputy-proof" for a very long time. Not an upgrade, AFAIC.

There were 6 pre-64 Winchester 94s in 30-30 at my first duty station. I always thought the lever 30-30 or 357 Magnum was a very fine patrol rifle, and would have chosen same if the agency had authorized the option. Just to give some insight--one of my rangemaster buddies a the time the 223/patrol rifle discussion was under way suggested that deputies also be able to use bolt-action 223s with scope sights, given that schoolyard shootings and takeover bank robberies were the two scenarios being addressed--and a high degree of accuracy is always a good thing at such times. One of the admin functionaries of august rank decreed that such systems were "too accurate for general issue to personnel".

Too accurate. Admin pogue, in full flower. It's nice being retired, believe me.

[MT Gianni]

Thanks Corky. I was friends with a former Army Ranger who served in the Viet Nam war and he said he rarely remembered using aimed fire. Most of his was behind a tree or under cover where his M-16 and wrist were the only thing exposed.

[JW6108]

It was the Governor of Ohio who tried to ban Assault Rifles (Henry's) back in the 1850s.

Somewhere I have an article where a guy used a 30-30 at Thunder Ranch - and did pretty well.

The Outdoor Channel just did a Positive piece on Leverguns as defensive/house-clearing guns.

IIRC the French Navy bought several thousand Win 1894s before WWI.

I also seem to remember an incident where leverguns were used to great effect in Russia or somesuch...

Personally I think as a Combat Rifle, they are better in pistol calibers, but that's just me. I like 12rds of .357...

The Russians bought 300,00 1895 Winchester rifles in 7.62c54R, with about 293,000 of them being delivered prior to the start of the Revolution. Wouldn't we like to have a big batch of them show up here?

[Three44s]

If I EVER find a weapon that's "too accurate" ..........

....... I will immediately believe that hell has also just froze over!!!


Three 44s

[sundog]

The Duke and Deano in Rio Lobo (?). Yeah, it's just a movie, but,... OH, the lever guns.

[Frank46]

Shooting Gallery on the outdoor channel featured lever actions as tactical rifles. One had a forend with picatinny rail and aimpoint red dot sight. At first had my doubts but as the show went along I eventually came to the conclusion that for home defense a lever action chambered for a pistol cartridge 357-44-45 wasn't such a bad idea. Short, light, easy to operate and in the longer rifle barrel increased velocity. I'm not going to say fool proof but close to it. Frank