Salute Cannon Charges

[David2011]

The cannon is a 3" Mk 21 (or thereabouts) WWII vintage gun. We're looking for information on creating salute charges. Used cartridges are available and we're assuming that the primers will be 209 shotgun primers. A tool can be made if necessary to ream the primer pockets to fit a 209 primer. If possible, the operators would like to avoid using black powder because of the cleaning issues on a 3" bore/150" long barrel.

Does anyone have first hand knowledge of making workable salute charges for a 3" naval gun or similar fixed ammunition gun? The less particulate matter leaving the barrel, the better. We don't know at this point where the gun might be fired. This is for a gun mounted on a retired US Navy ship.

[Winger Ed.]

Your deal, but part of the spectacle of watching salute cannons is the Black Powder flash and smoke from them.

I use single 'F' in my 2" when our neighborhood does its 4th of July redneck parade on our street
with golf carts and riding lawnmowers.

[JRD]

David,
I don't have any firsthand experience with anything other than blackpowder. In small arms blanks, they use flash powder instead of typical smokeless gunpowder. However, artillery sized cases have different characteristics that we don't appreciate as small arms reloaders. There may be experts in the reenacting community who will have the information you seek.
Just proceed with caution because you don't want to wind up like the Hellcat tank destroyer in Oregon back in 2015. They were shooting projectiles versus blanks, but two people were killed by a reloaded artillery shell rupturing the breech.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't know if this will help or not. I was part of a N-SSA group - we had two 3" ten pound Parrott Rifles. The service load for a 3" Civil War cannon was 1 pound of cannon grade black powder when shooting a projectile - maximum range was around a nile and a quarter. When we fired salutes (i.e. blank loads - we used 1/4 pound of cannon grade powder. We had a form we rolled tinfoil around to form a tube, folded an end over, dumped in the charged folded the other end over. When we loaded, the charge was introduced into the bore and rammed home and tamped in place. The powder wrapping was then pricked open with a vent prick through the vent and then a friction prime placed in the ent that was attached to the friction primer.

You are basically doing the same only using the cartridge casing.

A quarter pound of cannon grade black powder provides a loud boom and plenty of smoke.

Just be aware of a few things - DO NOT fire your 3" blanks in an area such as a "in town or in city" area where you have taller buildings that block the concussion - you can break windows and you'll set off every burglar and security within a large radius - don't ask how I know.

Another warning - we were invited one year to provide the salutes at the Veteran's Day Ceremonies at Battle Creek, MI. IIRC, they were held at Camp Custer. They brought a number of the long term patients from the VA so they could attend. NOBODY, not us, the VA people, etc. ever thought about how some of those patients might react when they heard a loud boom. We were given the sign to fire at the designated time, the lanyard was pulled and the usual "boom" occurred. As we began to reload for the next salute, mayhem broke out among the patients as some threw themselves to the ground, some started screaming and others reacted in different ways. Most of them were suffering from severe PTSD and the VA thought it would be nice to get them out. They had to stop the ceremony so they could get the patients back on the several busses and head back to the hospital. When we saw what was going on, we wormed the second charge out, wet sponged the piece and fired no more. We all feld t so bad and it really put a damper on the day for everyone knowing that we had been the cause of it. Hopefully you will never run into anything like that, but you just need to be aware that "things do happen".

Good luck - sounds like a great project. I don't think it is much different than developing a load . . . start low and work up until you get the desired results.

[WRideout]

Not exactly the same, but I have made blanks for a 20 ga shotgun by using a small charge of fast-burning powder, under a plastic wad full of Cream of Wheat. With a firm crimp, they will make noise without undue pressure problems. I think you could probably do something similar with the larger case. You will definitely need some kind of wad or similar to create back pressure, otherwise it is just a big flamethrower.

Wayne

[JRD]

Here's another thought. There is a Battleship Massachusetts museum in Fall River, Mass. I haven't been there to see them fire a salute, but have toured the ship multiple times.
They have one or two of the 5" guns that they fire salutes from. Perhaps reach out to that museum and see if they have someone there who's in charge of firing the 5" salutes.

[shell70634]

from the Army TM. I'm sure land based will work for the Navy too.

[shell70634]

If you have some old brass for the gun, you can cut it off, bore primer for a blank straight walled cartridge, and reload.

[SOFMatchstaff]

the 3"- 50 Naval gun is not some thing to use shot gun primers in!! You might inquire about the gas check primer system used in artillery cases to keep from sticking the firing pin through the gunner/loader. It is a multi piece assembly and threads into the case. Most, if not all, Naval blanks are some grade of black powder.

[BLAHUT]

You do not want to use black powder > a black subtitute my be better as a cleaner burner?? Blackhorn 209 is a good subtitute? Might want to look into ??

[shell70634]

Another route, contact Navy Ordnance. They may be able to locate some blanks for the gun. The Army at one time provided 75mm blanks to some organizations.

[David2011]

the 3"- 50 Naval gun is not some thing to use shot gun primers in!! You might inquire about the gas check primer system used in artillery cases to keep from sticking the firing pin through the gunner/loader. It is a multi piece assembly and threads into the case. Most, if not all, Naval blanks are some grade of black powder.

Lots of great ideas and information here. When I get back to the warehouse where the guns are being restored I'll be able to see the primers. It's also crossed my mind that I could machine some blanks that represent the first 2 or 3 inches of the cartridges and would be easily reloadable. It would also eliminate anyone trying "just a little more" powder. If we were firing projectiles I could understand why a 209 primer wouldn't be safe. I don't see much pressure developing with only a wad on top of the charge. Can you explain how the 209 would be unsafe? Maybe this is more complicated than I previously thought; just trying to help the battleship foundation out. Both the staff and I have concerns about cleaning after using black powder.

[Mk42gunner]

A 3"/50 primer closely resembles a .45-70 case. So close the older Gunner's Mates and Boatswain's Mates used them in the .45-70 line throwing guns (before my time, we used M-14's).

I never used a 3"/50 for a saluting battery, but I did have a 40mm saluting battery once. IIRC there were differing levels of saluting charges, even for the 40mm.

You will set off any car alarms in the vicinity. Not too bad for the normal 5 sec salutes, but the 1 minute guns on Memorial Day will set them off multiple times.

Good Luck,

Robert

[David2011]

I only wish we could make a quad 40 functional but the contract with the Navy prohibits it. Never mind the BATFE.