Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson discuss hand loading ammunition for self-defense. Critic

[poppy42]

OK so I’ll play devils advocate for some of you folks out there that want to use factory ammunition for self-defense, in particular the same ammunition of police use:
Defense: so Mr. Jones you use the same ammunition at the police departments use in their service weapons. Yes sir I picked it because that’s what all the police use.

Prosecutor: so you’re one of those law-enforcement wannabes that feels that it’s OK to be judge jury and executioner.
You’ll ponder that!
Here’s another one for you. Awful lot of people that go out and buy special self-defense ammunition don’t practice with it. Why you ask? That’s an easy question because it’s special and I don’t wanna have to use it and less I have to! Only to find out that it’s point of impact is 10 inches off the point of aim using the ammunition that you sited in your gun with. I’ll stick with my handloads the same ammunition I practice with.

[country gent]

I believe Glasser was on target when they marketed their high performance ammo as SAFETY SLUGS and touted the no over penetration aspect. They carry a good track record for the most part

As was said Ominous names and ads promoting the devastating results and this just makes it too easy to use by a prosecutor

[dverna]

OK so I’ll play devils advocate for some of you folks out there that want to use factory ammunition for self-defense, in particular the same ammunition of police use:
Defense: so Mr. Jones you use the same ammunition at the police departments use in their service weapons. Yes sir I picked it because that’s what all the police use.

Prosecutor: so you’re one of those law-enforcement wannabes that feels that it’s OK to be judge jury and executioner.
You’ll ponder that!
Here’s another one for you. Awful lot of people that go out and buy special self-defense ammunition don’t practice with it. Why you ask? That’s an easy question because it’s special and I don’t wanna have to use it and less I have to! Only to find out that it’s point of impact is 10 inches off the point of aim using the ammunition that you sited in your gun with. I’ll stick with my handloads the same ammunition I practice with.

Replying to this would get me banned.

In any case, it is useful to get different perspectives. We are adults who can weigh the merits of different options and determine the most reasonable one for our needs and circumstances.

[M-Tecs]

Replying to this would get me banned.

In any case, it is useful to get different perspectives. We are adults who can weigh the merits of different options and determine the most reasonable one for our needs and circumstances.

Historically there has been one actual case that reloaded ammo became a real issue and that was suicide. On the other hand, history is full of cases of the prosecutor claiming vigilantism and or claims of law-enforcement wannabes believing that it’s OK to be judge, jury and executioner. Almost any case involving a community watch member using deadly force turns into claims of excessive force used by a law-enforcement wannabe.

A good prosecutor will use common sense and only prosecute people and their actions that are legitimately illegal activities. Unfortunately, a very large percentage of the prosecutors are only interested in winning the case and will do whatever it takes to win. They will attack anything and everything you did. Ammunition selection historically is a non-factor unless it poison tipped, mercury filled or something like Dragons Breath.

Again, common sense goes a long way on this issue. Using deadly force to stop very bad behavior with the most effective ammunition is easy to defend. Using ammunition that increases pain and suffering without increasing stopping effectiveness or something that is intended to kill after the threat is over like bullet dipped in something to cause infections not so much.

Good example of what not to use for SD. https://www.bevfitchett.us/chemical-...20the%20poison.

[markshere2]

please substantiate how reloads had any bearing on outcome of those cases - subject was brought up as part of testimony only in the way i read + interpret it -

Quote from the Cops, " You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."

Translated - you will be punished by the process, and possibly by the outcome.

We have seen malicious prosecutors all over the country from George Zimmerman to Kyle Rittenhouse.

You go right on doing what you are doing, if " being right" is so important to you.

Immana lissen to Mas and minimize the risk to my freedom and finances.

[reddog81]

It's not a matter of being right. It's a matter of someone making claims that aren't supported by any facts. The fact that he can't bring up any relevant civilian self defense cases from the whole history of criminal law only helps prove that it is not a concern.

[JSnover]

Quote from the Cops, " You can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride."

Translated - you will be punished by the process, and possibly by the outcome.

We have seen malicious prosecutors all over the country from George Zimmerman to Kyle Rittenhouse.

You go right on doing what you are doing, if " being right" is so important to you.

Immana lissen to Mas and minimize the risk to my freedom and finances.

If it helps you sleep better, it's as good a choice as any.
If/when you get to court the primary issues will be why and how you shot someone. Zimmerman and Rittenhouse - as far as I know - used factory loads and were indeed punished by the process. I live in South Jersey now (and I can't blame anyone but myself for that) and I get a lot of news from Philadelphia. That city is on track to break last years' record for homicides including a surprising number of defensive shootings. Never a word in any of the reports about anyone using reloads vs. factory.
Wouldn't we see a surge in anti-reloading laws if a number of high-profile cases hinged on hand-loaded ammunition? Gun crime is up everywhere and component sales are phenomenal. Why hasn't the media (and those jack wagon prosecutors like Philadelphia's own Larry Krasner) made the connection? Maybe because there isn't one.

[Ed K]

Assuming an over-zealous prosecutor in each case, it’s hard to imagine a cast boolits member equipped with hand loads and wheel gun has more to be concerned with than someone with a documented history of heavy tactical training firing Ranger XST (AKA Black Talon).

Who here was looking for a fight? Maybe a wheelgun & handloads is a good defense!

[poppy42]

Replying to this would get me banned.

In any case, it is useful to get different perspectives. We are adults who can weigh the merits of different options and determine the most reasonable one for our needs and circumstances.

Don’t know what part of my post offended you but it certainly was not meant to offend anybody. As a matter of fact my little prosecutor or defense attorney scenario is not that much different than what the prosecutor tried to pull on Kyle Rittenhouse. As far as the second part I’ve personally known plenty of people they foolishly had the same box of ammunition in there safe for years because it was special and they didn’t want to use it up for practice. Anyway sorry again for whatever it was that offended you.

[Idaho45guy]

I used to carry only factory ammo for SD, until I actually could afford to benchrest that fancy ammo and realized that my carry pistol at the time was wildly inaccurate with it, while my handloads were over 300% more accurate.

I carry self-defense reloads because they are the most accurate loads for my pistols and I care about public safety and not missing my target.

Using only factory SD loads for carry guns due to worry about lawyers is like only using silver bullets in case you get attacked by a werewolf.

[schutzen-jager]

It's not a matter of being right. It's a matter of someone making claims that aren't supported by any facts. The fact that he can't bring up any relevant civilian self defense cases from the whole history of criminal law only helps prove that it is not a concern.

totally agree - just because someone states it or you read it on the internet does not make it a true fact -

[Rapier]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

[HWooldridge]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

I was in a jury pool once for a murder trial - woman shot her boyfriend. During voir dire, the defense attorney asked if anyone in the 60 person group knew anything about ballistics or reloading ammunition - no other info was provided. About a half dozen men, including me, raised their hands. Defense attorney then asked each of us if we would listen to and accept testimony from an expert witness. He got to me and I said sure, so long as it didn't contradict something I knew wasn't true. Lawyer asked me to clarify with an example, so I replied, if the expert said a .38 revolver fired a bullet at 4000 fps, I would recognize that as an inaccurate statement. Lawyer said thank you very much and moved on. Every one of the people who raised their hands were struck from the selection (no surprise there). I also found out later through the newspaper that she had used a .38 revolver to shoot the guy...funny coincidence.

[dverna]

Rapier,

You make the point I attempted to make much better.

Finial comments:

I am not too concerned about a criminal case.

It is the civil case that worries me. The bar for "guilt" is much lower in a civil suit. I am old, "rich" (compared to some), white, and "racist" (as some like to label people like me). It you have insurance and assets, the civil case is more likely. If you drive a 20 year old pickup and rent a single wide, the chances of a civil suit are very slim indeed.

Digest the opinions expressed in this thread in light of your net worth, type and amount of insurance you carry, and where you live. Some of the comments are questionable with a bit of critical thinking.

What makes sense for your situation is what is important.

[Omega]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

Here in TN, you can't be sued in civil court if the case is deemed self defense, and you can't be tried criminally for any weapons charge if the shooting was self defense. We had an instance where a felon used a gun he had to defend a store clerk, and no charges were filed due to him being a felon with a gun.

[MaryB]

Being in the court bond business and an expert witness, myself, I can tell you that you are concentrating on one aspect only, the criminal case. However the second step if you are found innocent in the criminal case, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, is the civil trial, which is very different from the criminal trial. You run head first into a majority opinion and only an opinion.

This is why the Florida' Stand your ground law is written with an allowance for anyone that should be sued for acting within the law, in self defense, can counter sue the other party, in response to their civil suit alleging injury. Thus forcing the other party to pay all costs to defend against their suit. It has put a huge speed bump in the road of the frivolous law suits.

Do you actually think a shooter - hand-loader is going to be allowed on any shooting trial's jury?

MN law prevents anyone injured during the commission of a crime from suing the innocent party. So if I shoot a thug breaking in my house he cannot sue for the injuries. If he trips and breaks his spine becoming paralyzed(and my cat is great for that at night in the dark!) he cannot sue me for it. Law came about when some thugs tried to sue a store owner after they were injured breaking in.

[buckwheatpaul]

Great post. That is exactly why I only carry factory loads. I use my reloads for practice...and pray that I never have to use the factory loads!

[M-Tecs]

Criminal and Civil cases have one thing in common. Once they are ended they both become part of actual history. As such we have historical evidence of the court's outcome. Where is all the actual evidence of reloads being an issue in either criminal or civil court cases???????????

[schutzen-jager]

Criminal and Civil cases have one thing in common. Once they are ended they both become part of actual history. As such we have historical evidence of the court's outcome. Where is all the actual evidence of reloads being an issue in either criminal or civil court cases???????????

i have found none in over 3 decades that have influenced any rulings at all -

[Larry Gibson]

Let's not be confused by facts.........