Massad Ayoob and Bill Wilson discuss hand loading ammunition for self-defense. Critic

[Larry Gibson]

Must remember Ayoob has a dog in this fight. He sells, as in dealer, high performance SD factory ammunition. CorBon if I recall correctly.

The use of deadly physical force justification is well defined by law. There is nothing in the law that says what kind of ammunition is ok to use. I researched this years ago as an LEA investigator and a firearms instructor. It was also discussed with an AG rep during an advanced investigation seminar with the determination there was no basis for any prosecution for the use of handloaded ammunition by LEOs or civilians as long as the shooting was justified.

So I'm out in the desert shooting my favorite cast bullet loads and some miscreant threatens me with a machete if I don't give up my Jeep. I refuse and he threatens to kill me and starts toward me. Am I supposed to say "nope, can't shoot you because I've got reloads in my gun. You'll have to hold on while I reload with factory ammo......." I'm sure that will be an option........

[Char-Gar]

he has stated that it has been brought up at trials , but to the best of my knowledge + opinions of numerous attorneys + law enforcement it has never been a deciding factor in any legal decision - total myth that can be overridden by any prosecutor or defense with simple application of documented facts + common sense -

This is the correct answer!

[schutzen-jager]

This is the correct answer!

thanks - seems to be a popular opinion with most posters on this thread + the several lawyers + leo's at my gun club -

[Char-Gar]

thanks - seems to be a popular opinion with most posters on this thread + the several lawyers + leo's at my gun club -

Ayoub had a nice gig going as a highly paid expert witness. He made a real stupid statement about the legal issues of using handloads for self defense. Lots of folks believed it, but he was an expert, or at least they thought so. Knowledge lawyers called BS on this as soon as the ink was dry, but still it goes on. Ayoub continues to make his assertion, but it is a much watered down version of his original nonsense.

[poppy42]

anyone have any verified documentation of reloaded ammunition being a major issue in any self defense court case ?

I would never doubt Massad Ayoob and his wisdom! His knowledge base and wisdom exceeds anything I could ever hope to acquire. With that being said this same issue has been around as long as I’ve been Shooting, and I’ve been Shooting since 1980! Personally I have done extensive research and cannot slash have not found any documented case where charges have been brought against someone in a citizen involved self-defense shooting solely because of the use of him loaded ammunition! In every case I’ve been able to find there have always been mitigating circumstances. Chargers happen broad based on those other circumstances! While the fact that the defendant also used handloads might’ve also been used by the prosecution. But as I said in any of the caselaw that I’ve been able to find charges have never been filed solely because a defendant used handloads. If the shooting was justified, shooting was justified. It is however a calculated risk that only you can decide whether or not you wish to carry your handloads for self-defense! I carry my own hand loads and will continue to do so. In my case it’s probably more of a monetary thing than anything else. I shoot a lot and I train with the same ammunition that I carry for personal defense. Personally I could not afford to do so if I carried factory ammunition. Especially today when a box of premium quality defensive ammunition can go for 50 bucks or higher for 20 rounds! I urge everyone to do their own research and based their decision on that research.

[poppy42]

Wonder if anyone has compiled data on the percentage of SD shootings that were accomplished using reloaded ammo?

There is very little documentation regarding any citizen involved self-defense shooting. Things like what is the average number of shots fired in a citizen involved self-defense shooting. At least from any reliable sources. They just don’t exist. I’ve looked and I’ve never been able to find anything.

[dverna]

I waited for sales of factory SD ammunition and got about 400 rds of 9mm's, 200 .40's and 200 .45's for the pistols. That will last a very long time as I may shoot a couple of mags a year of the stuff. I practice with reloads. Did the same for the 12 ga, about 300 rounds of buckshot and slugs and still have most of rounds I bought. Ditto with 500 rounds of factory for the AR's back when it was $7/box. I might have $600-700 invested.

I decided it was not a big deal to spend a bit to take one issue off the table...even if it is not an issue. And back then I lived in an area under the thumb of Democratic DA's.

Anything can be twisted to paint a negative picture. I have taken a number of SD classes...does that mean I am training to kill people? I used to shoot 20k rounds a year....am I training to kill people? Why does a citizen need to shoot 20 times more than most FBI, CIA and LEO agents?

I agree with others. A 'good shoot' is a 'good shoot' but there is still the chance you will need to defend yourself in court.

If you cannot afford factory ammunition, you are not much of a target for a civil suit so any legal risks of using reloads are minimized. And if you do not have a lot of money, you are likely not investing in high end training or shooting copious amounts of ammunition in competition.

If you have a net worth over $1 million, and carrying reloads to save money, it seems like poor judgement. If you are using reloads because they are "better", do not post that here, or elsewhere, because why do you need "better" ammunition than the police? Joe and Jane average may not agree with you.

Factors like where you live weigh in too. The DA for a big city is going to have a different mind set than the DA of Red Neck USA. Are you a member of a "white supremist militia" like the Proud Boys or Oath Keepers? Lots of crap can be used against you.

In the end, weigh all the factors and do what you can afford and be comfortable with.

[firefly1957]

This comes up every now and then and if true the government could also tell you what caliber to use just by limiting ammo for the ones they do not like!
After an incident with a meth head I talked to police and prosecutor here reloads and even cast bullets matter not only if the shooting was justified.

[Four-Sixty]

An Attorney can also argue a reloader handloads to make practice more economical, and therefore become a safer firearms user.

[JSnover]

I used to read Ayoob's work and I appreciate what he does but couldn't the argument go just as easily against factory loads?
If you bought the latest and greatest gun with all the best features for 'combat effectiveness' and then loaded it with factory ammunition that was marketed as the deadliest defensive cartridges ever devised, you might have to explain those choices in court.
In either case the prosecutor can try to paint you as a blood-thirsty psychopath. If you ever envision the possibility of shooting someone in self-defense get your mind right first and don't give your friends/neighbors/co-workers the impression that yer jest itchin' for a chance to blast somebody.

[deltaenterprizes]

This is a myth that refuses to die. Getting shot with a factory hollow point is no different than getting shot with a hand loaded one. And I use a pretty hot Buffalo Bore hollow point round in my .380, I also have a mag loaded with hand loads and if I grabbed the hand load it wouldn't make a difference, performance is virtually identical between them. When I use up the Buffalo Bore I will only use my hand loads.

And how will they know it is not factory ammo? I use a factory case, probably the same or very similar powder, a jacketed hollow point bullet just like the factory load... The cops aren't going to take all your ammo for testing, at most they will take what is in the mag. So no box saying it is X brand of ammo... I have never heard of anyone being asked what brand of ammo it is...

Powder sold to hand loaders has a dye to identify it from factory loaded ammunition.

[M-Tecs]

Powder sold to hand loaders has a dye to identify it from factory loaded ammunition.

In the 70's Taggants were purposed but they never happened. Other than Red Dot, Green Dot and Blue Dot I have not seen any evidence of dye in powders for reloading verse factory.

Do you have a source for this?

[derek45]

My Daughter just walked by and said - "that's definitely a wig "

LOL

I think she's right

[jonp]

The myth won't die. Just stop with the handloaded BS

[jonp]

Powder sold to hand loaders has a dye to identify it from factory loaded ammunition.

What wavelength is this die visible in?

[Handloader109]

Dye in it eh? Turns black when fired.

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

[popper]

Remember the 'dum-dum'? All the talk about them being 'illegal'? Uh, soft-nose expanding bullets. I.e. hunting bullets. The are several classifications of ammo we can't have. Anything else is OK.
I've read some of Ayoob's work, concluded he's full of himself.

[country gent]

In answer to J Snoover, Back in the 80s when Winchester brought out the black talon line surgeons and authorities were proclaiming it was to deadly and dangerous. The sharp petals formed by the scored jackets nose did to much damage and cut rubber gloves

[megasupermagnum]

The only possible thing I can gather from that is don't use loads that are wildly outside of normal. If you are loading ammo to a normal range, it's going to leave GSR no matter who manufactures it, or no matter the powder. While using a factory load is not going to make things worse, I'm not convinced it will ever make things better. Mas brings up some good cases, but are you really telling me either one of those would matter what ammo they used, or even what gun? The evidence said the gun was fired in a certain direction, I fail to see how anything else matters. Maybe that 38 special +P will throw a bigger fire ball, and more residue. So what? I don't see how that could matter. In both of his examples it was bullet direction that mattered. In the case of George Zimmer, I just don't see how it matters at all what you are shooting when the gun is basically point blank. His only example that involved GSR determining distance was suicide case. That's a whole can of worms in itself. In a self defense shooting I've never heard of an example where distance was any factor. Unless you are talking examples like George Zimmer on who was on top of who, I don't see how distance is any factor. It's never been covered in any CCW class I've taken.

I personally just put this in with the huge pile of "what if's". A person can go insane trying to beat every what if. Worry about what matters. Train, practice with your handgun (and long guns), take CCW classes even in a constitutional carry state. Make sure you are carrying a reliable and accurate handgun. Don't put yourself in dangerous situations. Everything else is a shade of grey.

[AnthonyB]

Are you sure there is an anvil in the primer of every factory round you buy?

I remember an article by Ross Seyfried about the absolute, most reliable ammo. That was one of his considerations for dangerous critters, if I remember correctly. I also seem to remember the same article mentioned him using factory ammo on the way to his championship as one less thing that was on him to worry about. He could then worry about shooting only; not his fault if there was a problem. The article explained it as a mental thing.
Tony