Redding's new policy - Make junk

[monadnock#5]

Now that would make an interesting You Tube video, and attract the attention of a much wider audience.

[omgb]

Rick, how about a swap. I have a Mec 9000 that needs a refurbishment. I got it from a lady whose husband passed away. I'll send you the Mec at no cost if you send me the Redding. I'll look at the Redding, agree or dissagree with you by PM. You can then post the results. I'll use the Reding for spare parts. What do you say?

[cbrick]

Well RJ, that’s an interesting offer but first I need to figure out what I would do with the MEC, for the tens of thousands of rounds of ammo I've loaded nary a one of them were a shotgun shell . . . No shotgun.

Redding's proof that their products are still top notch was calling me a liar. I have been looking around at video cameras and also at renting them. I may still do this because this press is so far out of alignment that its easily seen with the naked eye and its exactly the same as the first press that went back to Redding, the one Redding said was fine so the one I still have is also fine.

Am I mad? I’m out over $900.00 on useless junk and Redding refuses to honor their warranty, instead of doing the right thing they chose to call me an idiot and a liar. Mad? Gee, say it ain’t so. With the people here that are reading about what Redding has become plus the other boards where I’ve seen this picked up on and the page on my web site that’s getting good traffic if even 10% of these people think about this when making their next reloading tool purchase (much less for years down the road) . . . well. It’s a video that should get good traffic on u-tube also so I think I’ll hang on to the cast iron paper weight for awhile. All this and Redding doesn’t seem to care, I suppose there are plenty of unsuspecting victims for Redding to prey on.

Thanks for thinking about it though.

Rick

[monadnock#5]

As you're in sunny California, you must have rubbed elbows with a few people in the movie industry. While there's no need to go "HOLLYWOOD" on this new project, I still think you need to get those camera angles and the lighting just right.

[omgb]

Fair enough. You and I are neighbors though, I live in Santa Clarita and teach Hunter Ed at Angeles. If you decide that you're through with this thing, let me know. We can work out a deal of some kind and I can use the press for spare parts. If you want to part with any turrets, PM me and lets talk. i could use a spare turret.

[omgb]

I just had another genius idea. PM me. I know a number of guys who would shoot the video stuff for you for free. i teach at a high school with a real top-notch media focus program. I've got a 21 year old in mind who could do it and get it up to Youtube for free.

[cbrick]

omgb, now there's an offer I'll take you up on. I can get this on YouTube (and here) and not have to add the cost of a camera to the cost of the Redding cast iron paper weight. I'll get a PM off to you.

Video (hopefully) coming soon folks. Perhaps Robin Sharpless at Redding will attempt to convince folks that the camera is also a liar.

Rick

[shdwlkr]

cbrick
I have several Redding items but after following your post here and a few other places I am looking at Foster and Wilson from now on. Might even look at LEE as they all still thing the customer should be treated fairly.
I am also upset that you have been talked down to. Wish I still was in NY for this one and would love to walk in for a face to face and have them tell me to my face that everything is fine and have them show me just how good it works. It would be so nice to see the expression on their face when they couldn't get it to work either.
Oh well maybe it will be sold to someone who cares about customers then we can go back to them if there are any customers left.

[cbrick]

Got a PM from ombg, looks like we'll be able to do the video of Redding's cast iron paper weight. Can't be this coming weekend, neither of us will available, hopefully the 21 or 22 of this month.

shdwlkr, don't forget RCBS and Hornady. RCBS customer service is still first rate, I had a problem with my RCBS Charge Master Combo. RCBS customer service said no problem, we'll send you a new one with a shipping label for the return of the old one, when you get the new one just use the shipping label and box to return the old one to us. That is customer service, compare this with the treatment Redding dishes out to their victims.

Rick

[klw]

I've never seen Redding make a bad product. The last four cavity mould I bought from them came within the last month and it is, as always, perfect.

I've been thinking a lot about this and I just don't believe it. Redding is about as good at customer service as anyone gets. Everyone can have a bad day, of course, but if you did get a bad product from Redding there is absolutely no question in my mind that they would make it right.

There is CLEARLY a problem here but it isn't Redding!

[cbrick]

Well klw ya got me, just as Redding says . . . I am a liar. I must be, both Redding and now you have said so. Your post as you edited it is extremely insulting and based on NOTHING but your own assumptions.

Might I suggest you wait for the video before you make another attempt at sounding like you know what your talking about and see if you change your tune.

Rick

[klw]

Well klw ya got me, just as Redding says . . . I am a liar. I must be, both Redding and now you have said so. Your post as you edited it is extremely insulting and based on NOTHING but your own assumptions.

Might I suggest you wait for the video before you make another attempt at sounding like you know what your talking about and see if you change your tune.

Rick

You clearly have an anger management problem.

Redding, incidentally, offered a full refund here and that offer was rejected.

[cbrick]

I'm out over $900.00 on products that don't work and all the mfg will do is send emails to other people calling me a liar and I'm mad. Please say it ain't so.

As for klw, there you go again, making assumptions and flapping your gums on a subject that you clearly know absolutely nothing.

Rick

[waksupi]

Cool it down, guys.

[Boomer Mikey]

I know that cbrick knows his stuff... his Redding T7 press issues reminded me about my own problems with bullet run-out.

I purchased one of those excellent run-out gages from Sinclair International about 10 years ago and found my RCBS Rockchucker produced ammo with way too much run-out so I sent my press to RCBS along with a note about excessive run-out in my ammo. I couldn't live without a press at the time so I ordered a new Rockchucker and put it to use while the 15 year old one was being looked at. My ammo loaded with the new Rockchucker had excessive run-out. The old Rockchucker came back a couple of weeks later with a note that it was well within specifications... I finally got around to investigating the issue about 5 years and many thousands of reloads later.

The following information about bullet run-out got me on the right track to solving my run-out issues with my Redding RCBS and Dillon presses. It's one thing to be able to measure run-out but how to resolve run-out issues was another problem for me until I found this info.

"There are several ways to help limit your bullet run out. First thing you need to understand is what is causing your bullet run out from the beginning and in most cases its not when you seat your bullets.

Need to go back to the beginning. First off, virgin brass in general is not the best for getting very low, consistent bullet run outs. You need good brass and you need to fire form it in most cases.

After you fire a case, be careful when you eject the case by controlling it as it’s pulled out of the chamber by your off hand. Take that case; run the fired case your concentricity gauge. It should run very true, less then 1/2 thou run out or you have some issues with your chamber.

Once you prove that your chamber is good concentricity wise, now its time to start the process of loading your case.

What I do to check my FL die, if that is what you’re using, is to pull the expander stem out of the die. Screw the die into the press down to the point you want. Now DO NOT tighten the lock ring down on the die. Again, DO NOT lock the die in place. Will explain why in a bit…

Lube your case, run it up into the die to resize it and then clean it off and check for neck run out. There should really be no neck run out if your dies are in good shape and generally they are.

This tells you your dies are true. So why not lock the lock ring down? Well, your press and your dies are mass produced items, as such there are variables in the machining that will result in a non concentric condition if the die is locked down into the press. This is because all those imperfections in the machining will then be transposed into your case and you will see more neck run outs.

Leaving the die loose will allow the die to self center if you will as you run the case up into the die and generally the neck run outs will be MUCH less using this method. If your worried about the case changing position in the press, take a black marker and make a reference mark on the die and press and you can visually watch to make sure the die does not rotate in the press as you size your cases.

So now you know your chamber is true and your die body is true. Next step and the one that generally causes the most problems with bullet run out in finished ammo is the expander stem.

If you now reinstall your expander stem into your set up die and run one of your sized cases through the die again, you will, about 80% of the time you’ll see that the neck run out increases with the expander stem in the press, why?

Well, it’s because the case is unsupported when the expander button is passing though the case neck and it can be allowed to move in whatever direction it wants. This can range from just a bit of run out to as much as 7 to 8 thou in run out in the worst cases I have seen. So how do we fix this?

This will add a couple steps to your loading process using conventional dies but it will be worth it in the end as far as consistent ammo.

First thing you need to do is deprime your cases. You can either do this using a piece of steel spring wire and your shell holder on the work bench with a small mallet to tap out the primer or you can get a smaller diameter expander button so it will not touch your case neck when you pull the case out. You can also use one of the universal depriming dies as well.

Once you have all your cases deprimed however you choose to do it, There is a rather simple way to set up your die, WITH the expander button to produce much lower neck run outs in your sized case.

Take a fired case, clean and lube it. With your FL die in the location you want, un-tightened, and the expander stem in the die at its conventional location, run your case up into the die. Leave the ram at its top position with the case in the die body. Now back out your expander stem as far as possible. If your using RCBS dies, this will work very well, if your using Redding or others with a different design, it will not work AS well.

Anyway, back off your expander until you feel it stop against the bottom if your case neck inside the case, then turn it back down a 1/2 turn so that there is some clearance between the case and neck with the case is in its top position in the die. Leave the expander loose!!!

Now, lower the case out of the die and you will nearly instantly feel the expander engage the neck of the case, before it has even been released by the neck of the die.

So what does this do for us? Well, we have proven that the die body is true already. AS such, we use that die body to control the case neck as we expand the case. As the expander passes through the case neck, the die is controlling the case neck for nearly all the length that it is being expanded. This will generally GREATLY reduce your neck run outs.

Neck run out is critical because whatever neck run out you have, this will be transposed into bullet run out in finished ammo. If you’re using a conventional seating die, generally you will see the neck run out often double when bullet run out is measured. This means if you are running 1 thou in neck run out, it’s not uncommon to see 2 thou in bullet run out in finished ammo.

My goal is to get all my sized cases ready to load with neck run outs of less then 1 thou. They’re not all to this level using conventional loading dies but using the system described above, most are.

When seating bullets, there is no real way to make a conventional seating die perform better.

In my opinion, it’s much better to get an in-line bullet seating die such as those from Forster or Redding. These dies have a sliding sleeve that controls the case as the bullet is being seated into the case neck. This greatly decreases bullet run out in finished ammo. I again leave these dies loose in the press.

With an in-line die, in most cases, the bullet run out will be basically the same as neck run out in the sized cases you started with. In some cases, it will actually be less then the neck run out, WHY?

Well, if the case necks are inconsistent in thickness, when you expand them with an expander button, the inside of the case mouth may be concentric but the variation in the neck thickness will be transposed to the OD of the case so your neck run outs will read higher then the ID neck run out. This is a good thing! That is why the bullet run out is often less.

If you want to correct this, take a very light neck turning cut to true up the case neck thickness or get better quality brass to start with.

These are the steps I use when using conventional FL die to size cases to get the best neck run out possible. For best bullet run outs, you really need a quality seating die. The Forster dies are not terribly expensive and well worth the cost. The Redding Comp dies are much more spendy, very good but spendy.

If you’re using a Redding FL die, the steps described above will not work AS well but generally, Redding dies produce lower neck run out numbers anyway compared to other FL dies.

If you’re using Hornady dies, at least the newer ones, these methods will not work because they use an expander stem design that needs to be rigid to work.

Many will say using a neck bushing die will solve the problem. My answer to this is yes and no. If you’re using an S-type die, you can still get high neck run outs because the case is not controlled by the die as the neck is sized. You do not have the expander stem issues but you can still get neck run out issues.

I have also had customers spend $200 on a full set of Redding Comp dies only to complain their bullet run outs are higher then they expected them to be. Why?

Well, with a neck bushing die, any imperfection in neck thickness is transposed from the OD of the case neck to the ID of the case neck. When you seat a bullet, the bullet will be guided by the ID of the case neck and as such, will result in higher bullet run outs.

If your using a neck bushing die, it is always recommended to either use the a brand of brass with consistent neck thicknesses or to take a very light truing pass with a neck turner to even up the case neck. That way, the OD and ID of the case neck are running the same run out value and your finished ammo will be much better quality.

If your sized neck run outs are good, less then 1 thou, and your getting bullet run out, there are a couple things to look at, first you need an in-line seater die no questions.

Also, uneven necks can also do this; to that end, uneven inside case mouth chamfering can also do this. Remember that if the bullet can, it will follow the neck and also the chamber on that neck. If the case mouth is uneven or the chamfer uneven, you’ll get increased neck run-out… especially with conventional seating dies.

If you’re looking to get consistent bullet run-outs, you NEED an inline bullet seater, it’s that simple.

A lot of die makers make them, some are better then others. I believe the ones with the full length sliding sleeve are best."

Some of you may find this information as useful as I have.

Have fun,

Boomer

[alamogunr]

Now my head hurts. I have saved Boomer's post so I can study it at my leisure. Not often you get the full explanation on how to fix a problem or a perceived problem. Right now I have no way to determine if I have a problem.

By the way, I don't blame cbrick for being upset. I suspect that he talked to a smart a$$ at Redding and if management is aware of the problem it caused, they are not acting responsibly by not resolving the problem. I don't doubt that others who have posted their good experiences are relating things as they know them.

Let's all remember what we are here for.

John
W.TN

[cbrick]

WOW, Mikey, that's quite the post, valid info and very well said.

I don't want to burst your bubble or step on what had to be a lot of time and work but . . . bullet run-out is not the problem with this T-7. Someone else earlier in this thread started talking about bullet run-out and using bullet run-out to check the press but it wasn't me.

The problem with it is the ram and the dies do not align. Put a shell-holder in the ram, screw a die into the press, place a cartridge case in the shell-holder and it doesn't matter if its virgin brass, fire formed brass, straight wall brass or bottle neck brass, raise the ram slowly and when the case mouth gets to the die it is not aligned, it is not in the center of the die, the case is well off to the left side of the die. If you continue to raise the ram you get to watch the case tip to the right as the case mouth hits the chamfered edge of the die so the case mouth can enter the die, you don’t need to measure anything, it’s so far off just watch it happen. My first thought (with the first press) was that the case wasn't straight so I rotated the brass 180 degrees and it did it again with exactly the same result, the left side of the case hits the left side of the die and tips to the right. This was once fired WW brass from my FA and a Redding Carbide sizer. I spent three afternoons swapping dies (calibers) and die plates on the press and nothing changed, every cartridge case in every caliber with each of four die plates did exactly the same thing, in exactly the same way.

If the brass were the problem by rotating it 180 degrees the right side of the case mouth would hit on the right side of the die. It doesn’t, it still hits on the left. I placed the same die, same shell-holder and same piece of brass in the Rockchucker and the brass entered the die perfectly straight. The shell-holder was an RCBS so I borrowed a Redding shell-holder and tried that and nothing changed, straight into the Rockchucker and hitting on the left and tipping to the right in the T-7.

The manager of the reloading store is an NRA certified handloading instructor and before he agreed to send the press and 3 extra plates back to Redding he had me set up the press in the store and demonstrate the problem. He agreed with me completely and instantly agreed to ship it back (my $40.00). He also swapped the press and three additional die plates for me with a brand new in the box T-7. I thought the problem was over at this point but the new press is exactly the same as the first.

I don’t think there is a problem with the die plates; the problem seems to be with the ball detent in the rear of the press that locks up the die plate being located slightly off, because its not located in the correct spot every die plate put on the press is exactly the same amount out of alignment with the ram. That is exactly what two presses with a combined 8 die plates have done. With two presses in a row and both exactly the same there can’t be much doubt it’s a bad run of presses but Redding refuses to admit that’s even a possibility, according to Redding I’m just an idiot and of coarse a liar. Just buy RCBS from now was their advice to me on the phone.

So here I sit with a very expensive piece of Redding cast iron junk and the best I get from Redding is being slandered in emails to other people. And some people can't understand why I would be upset.

Wait for the video.

Rick

[Boomer Mikey]

Hang on there Rick,

The post wasn't even hinting that my problem was the same problem you're experiencing.

At the time I had run-out issues I didn't know anything about dial test indicators and such and I can't take credit for figuring out how to check and correct for run-out. The information is posted for those of us that may find it useful.

I know you well enough to know that you know what you're doing and respect your years of experience and knowledge of reloading quality ammunition.

I have a T7 press and extra turrets; I haven't experienced problems but I don't use it very much. I've also had a bad experience with Redding customer service concerning a Saeco lubricator sizer and a bad 357 mold; however, I've also had bad experiences with Lee Precision and other manufacturers.

I understand why you're upset and sympathise with you about the whole situation. Where do you go from here?

There are plenty of talented guys that can correct your press alignment issues (Dewey comes to mind). I know it shouldn't come to this but it's better than an otherwise useless ***.

Have fun,

Boomer

[Creedmoor]

Well, this was an eye opener "for sure and for certain".

I just left Cabelas after nearly plunking down about $250 for a new T-7. I decided I would sleep on it for a night before committing. Glad I did! I won't be buying Redding any time soon, if ever.

I had always been told that Redding was the best, so that's what I wanted. Not sure where to go now. I have had hit and miss quality experiences with RCBS and Lyman. RCBS was as good as gold when it came to making it right. I didn't even have to pay shipping to return a defective product. Lyman on the other hand gave me the "It's within specs so live with it." line.

For peace of mind's sake I guess I'll remain a loyal RCBS customer. After all, isn't that what Redding is advising? Probably good advice.

[#2Alloy]

This thread is terribly disgusting. May I ask at what point did you lose the whole concept of having a hobby? Have you actually looked at factory ammo and checked the concentricity of it?

Why can't you just have fun? There are tolerences in everything made, whether it is manufactured here or overseas.

I think many are hiding behind a .001 tolerence issue as simply an excuse for some other shortcoming.

Customer Service representatives rarely get the appreciation they deserve. They are expected to know every detail of every item and every possible thing someone could dream of to use the item, usually greated with a nasty reply from the customer.

For Heaven's Sake - get over yourselves and get out and shoot the gun, not your mouths.

Remember why you reload, have fun! Isn't that why you do it?