Rolling Block Pistol Project & Welding?

[lar45]

Hi everybody,
I am about to embark on a Rolling Block Pistol Project and need some advise on welding extensions on the tang and trigger guard. What material would be compatible with the RB steel, and preferred welding method?
I picked up a Carl-Gustaf 1867 in 12.7x44R to start with. It isn't here yet, but here's a stock photo.



What I would really like is a 50 Army pistol, but they are stupid expensive, so...
please don't hate me, but I pan to cut and chop and weld and see how close I can come.
Here is the 50 army:



The 50 Navy:



The 1867 transition model:


Forgive the very crude paint cut and paste.


I really like the profile of the Army grip, but duplicating the hump at the top might be beyond my skill set.
So maybe I'll try for something like the 1867 transition junction at the frame and the flared out Army grip at the base.

I looked in my box of Knife making supplies and have some 1080, 5160, 80CRV2 and 52100. I'm guessing the 1080 would probably be stronger than the original steel. I hope it will weld together fine. I have a gunsmith friend that can TIG weld. I can stick and wire weld, only have a stick and oxy setup currently. I'm thinking prep and mostly contour all the pieces, then have him TIG it together.
I'm terrible with wood, but if I go slow, maybe I can come up with something acceptable.

Any suggestions?
It is an Antique, so I won't be breaking any laws.
I have some 50 AK brass coming to cut down. I have 50-70, 500 Linebaugh and 500S&W dies, so I should be able to make something work for sizing and forming brass. The 12.7x44R is supposed to have a .502" groove and I have several .500 molds I can beagle...

[Nobade]

1018 is probably closer to what it is and since it doesn't need to be hard there that's what I'd go for.

[John Taylor]

The Remington pistols were the same size as the #2 rifle action which is smaller than what you have. Even tho you are using an antique the ATF may not be happy with your idea.

[lar45]

Antiques are not considered "Firearms " by the ATF. The NFA and GCA apply to "Firearms"
That's why you can order Antiques delivered directly to your home.

[elmacgyver0]

You may want to check into the legalities of this.
You may be ok, but with the B.A.T.F.E. you never know.
I have heard that once you start modifying an antique, they no longer consider it an antique.
Might be BS, but do you really want to take the chance?
Please do your homework first. Better safe than sorry.
Not the most gun-friendly administration in power at the present.

[John Taylor]

I was doing conversions on the 1858 Remingtons to 41 Colt with the idea that the ammo was not available. An ATF agent told me it was now available. Not telling me to stop but was giving me a warning. There was no problem making the cylinder but as soon as I made the cut in the frame for the loading gate it was considered manufacturing a firearm.

[lar45]

Was that a reproduction 1858? Or an original?
There's a difference in the originals made prior to 1898 or 1899(don't remember off the top of my head) and reproduction antiques. The reproduction can not be made in a centerfire cartridge available through commercial channels. That's why your 41 Colts were probably okay, but not anymore?

[GOPHER SLAYER]

I thought the 1935 firearms act prohibited making a pistol out of a rifle.

[nuclearcricket]

If you really want to build a pistol, you should contact Rodney Storie and get one of his casting kits. Yes they are a good bit of work but at least you would be legal and his castings are made of 8620 so they are a quality steel. You can find him on the ASSRA forum. Good guy to deal with. Last I knew his kits were about $300 or so.
Sam

[lar45]

I thought the 1935 firearms act prohibited making a pistol out of a rifle.

Yes, it does, but the Swede Rolling Block in question was made prior to 1898 which makes it an Antique and the GCA Gun Control Act, and NFA National Firearms Act classify "Antiques" as non-firearms.

[lar45]

If you really want to build a pistol, you should contact Rodney Storie and get one of his casting kits. Yes they are a good bit of work but at least you would be legal and his castings are made of 8620 so they are a quality steel. You can find him on the ASSRA forum. Good guy to deal with. Last I knew his kits were about $300 or so.
Sam

I had not thought of this. It sounds like a good option. I'm not familiar with 8620, how does it compare to 4140? I guess I could look it up...
I already have a .510 Bauska Barrel's blank sitting on the shelf, so I could just go with a 50-70 and call it good.
I'll have to look at his kits and see what he has to offer.
A customer of mine came by with a box of single shot action parts, rough cast, to show me. I wonder if he got them from Storie??? I may have to see if I can find his number and take a closer look.

[405grain]

8620 is an excellent steel for firearms. It is not difficult to machine and is ideal for case hardening, (including color case hardening). as for strength: the receivers of M1 Garand's are made from 8620, so it is orders of magnitude better than the low carbon steels used in antique rolling blocks. If you choose to, you could get the pistol castings from Rodney Storie, keep the Carl-Gustaf as a rifle, and build yourself both a rifle and pistol in the same caliber. Using the pistol castings would avoid both welding/altering the 1867 receiver as well as any entanglements with the ATF. Build both firearms and you can have your cake and eat it too.

[LAGS]

I took a frame for a Belgian top break pistol that had a Round bird head grip.
I cut the frame ,heated the back strap to bend it, then gas welded a piece if steel into the gap to make it into a square frame that accepted S&W pistol grips.
Being the back part of the frame , I was not worried about disturbing the heat treat on the frame.

[Nobade]

Is Storie still in business? That would be great news if you could go that way, for many reasons. I hope it works out!

[nuclearcricket]

I purchased 2 kits from Rodney last year and just saw that he purchased some stuff in the for sale section on the ASSRA site. His email is : Rodney Storie <rodney4477@yahoo.com>. He lists a lot of different casting but not everything may be available and ready to ship, you may have to wait a bit.
8620 if a good steel for many thing. Not hard to work with and will take wonderful colors when case hardened. And if you have an oops it is easy to weld up with mild steel rod. 4140 can be kind of nasty stuff to work with. I have never had good luck in getting a good machine finish on it, where as 8620 is easier to machine and will give a good finish. Some of the companys making reproduction rifles use it for their receivers.
What contact I have had with Mr Storie has been a good experience.
Sam

[John Taylor]

You can legally make a firearm for your own use but you can not sell it. Any time you take an antique and convert it to take modern ammo you are manufacturing a firearm if you alter the frame in any way. That's where the 80% gun come in, the people supplying the parts are not selling a finished receiver. You can not finish the receiver for someone ells, only for your own use. Same applies if you take a casting and build a gun or start with a piece of steel from scratch. As for altering an antique it might be best to check with ATF and if they say it's OK then keep a copy of the letter, you never know when you will run into another agent that does not read the law the same way.

[cwtebay]

From the ATF website.....

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[lar45]

That is very informative, thank you.
Does anyone know if 12.7x44r ammo is available anywhere? My Google searches have only turned up brass.

[cwtebay]

That is very informative, thank you.
Does anyone know if 12.7x44r ammo is available anywhere? My Google searches have only turned up brass.

Actually no - which makes you scratch your head about the "available through ordinary channels ' portion of the ATF statement I posted.
There was some available from Buffalo Arms, but I see they are not making it at the moment. Do you reload? There was a poster on one of the forums that discussed making it from 348 Winchester, and using an assortment of dies to reform and load with.
I'll poke around and see if I can find that and post it back here.

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[lar45]

Yes, I am an experienced reloader. Always more to learn though...

Was just wondering about the availability of loaded ammo. If there is not, then maybe the project could continue.
It's supposed to be delivered today, hopefully...
I will print off your posted caption as well as the part on Antiques from the ATF website, then write a letter outlining the project and see what I get back.
My 50 AK brass arrived from Midway today