Round Ball in 12ga Shotgun - Advice, Please!

[nicholst55]

I have a TC New Englander in 12 gauge that I am seeking advice about. First, this is not your standard New Englander shotgun. It features screw-in chokes, a checkered stock, and a fiber-optic front sight and the TC aperture rear sight. I'll take some pix and post them later. This barrel is threaded for the Browning, Winchester and Mossberg-compatible tubes - the only one such that I have even heard of. I used a cylinder hone to hone the Modified choke tube to cylinder bore. I also have a spare tube to fall back on, if needed. I honed the chole tube out so that I could easily reload the gun without either removing the choke tube, or possibly damaging the wads while loading. I have pretty much decided to shoot a single round ball out of this gun, and treat it as a smoothbore musket. It should be devastating on deer at close range. The problem I have experienced is that I can't get the gun to shoot worth a hoot! I figure that it's probably my loading technique, since I have zero experience with smoothbores.

Question: How would you assemble your loads? Should I use an over-powder wad? I tried essentially a patched round ball without a wad, and the results were less than stellar. I assume that I need to skip the patch, and use an over-shot wad to retain the round ball. How about lube? Should I use a lube cookie, or a lubed patch between the over-powder wad and the round ball?

I may experiment with shot loads later on, but I need to find some more powder first.

[725]

I'd use an over-powder wad / card and the biggest ball you can find to fit the barrel. Thin patch to hold it in place. Not specifically related to your endeavor, but that is the theory that worked for me in a cartridge gun (prior posting long ago ~ "12 ga. success with RB"). I wanted it as tight as I could get it and still have it function safely. Worked marvelously for me. YMMV

[Dan Cash]

A friend of mine used a patched round ball in his .69 smooth bore. I don't recall a wad between powder and ball but the patched ball was a tight fit in the bore. Out to 100 yards, he was deadly with that flint lock.

[Nobade]

Musket paper cartridges work pretty well in mine. Bite the tail, pour the powder, and ram the whole thing down. The cartridge provides the wadding and lube. Fast and effective. BTW, why hone out a choke tube when they are easily available in whatever size you want? Is it possible you got it ovalized or not straight?

[sharps4590]

I think I'd find a cylinder bore choke as well. I think Nobade is onto something. Usually a PRB out of a smoothbore is just about as accurate as a rifle out to about 60 yards. I had a 20 bore fowler and with a PRB it cloverleafed at 25 and was 2 inches or less at 50. Several years ago I had a couple guys and a gal shooting fowlers clean my clock at a match and I was a pretty fair shot back then.

I am unfamiliar with the New Englander. Does it have a rear sight, like a smooth rifle would? If not, keep in mind your eye is the rear sight and if it isn't positioned the same way every time, you won't group worth spit. It's just like moving the rear sight every shot.

[LAGS]

I shoot patched round balls out of my .75 Blunderbuss/ Musketoon.
So far it works great with 80 gr of 2f.
But my rifle is only a 20" barrel and the rifle has no sights ( Yet )
It may end up with nothing more than a shotgun bead front sight.

[nicholst55]

I honed out the Modified choke tube for a variety of reasons, primarily because at the time I had the hone but no disposable cash. It may well be oval shaped; guess I should order some choke tubes. I promised pictures. You'll note that the gun has very good sights for a muzzle loader, and the checkering is well executed. I don't know the story behind it, because I bought it used - off this forum, IIRC:

Attachment 298786 Attachment 298787 Attachment 298788 Attachment 298789Attachment 298790

[longbow]

A couple of options that should work for you:

- Naked ball. With cylinder bore choke tube use the largest ball that will fit and preferably gets a slight swage as it goes into the bore. You'd have to accurately mic the bore then get an appropriate ball mould. 0.735" is large and would need a beveled muzzle but it didn't take much to push a 0.735" RB through my 12 ga. cartridge gun. Once fouled though it may be a challenge.
- RB + cloth patch. Personally I'd try a 0.690" RB with heavy/thick cotton patch... like old blue jean material or use two thinner patches. I find that 0.690" RB + 2 0.011" cotton patches is a nice snug fit in my 12 ga. Lyman has 0.715" RB moulds which would use a thinner patch and Round Ball Moulds in the UK will make whatever size mould you want.
- Plastic shotcup. You might also try using plastic shotcups with cushion leg cut off and round ball in the plastic shotcup. A 0.678" ball fits many standard trap wads quite well.
- Donut wad. And finally you might try a donut wad with an undersize ball like 0.690" or 0.715" then pushing a tight naked or patched ball through the bore wouldn't be an issue. BPI used to list felt wads with holes in the middle but you could punch your own out of card wads or felt wads... might have to make a jig to center the hole in the donut though. Could drill hard card wads to put enough hole to center the ball too.

With any of those options I'd be using a nitro card wad or two over the powder and then BP lubed felt or fiber wad then the round ball.

This is a good read too and might help some:

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

It is possible a patch will be stripped off at the choke tube but I suspect the gas pressure will hold it down and in place for the small jump. I would not have believed it but I have read posts where people have patched round balls into 12 ga. hulls then crimped and the reports are that accuracy is good which means the patch is staying in place through leaving a rough hull, opening the crimp, jumping through the forcing cone and entering the bore. If that is true then I doubt the small jump at the choke tube will be an issue but something you should be aware of.

From personal experience I can say that a 0.690" RB naked in a modified choke in my old Pedersoli side by 12 ga. was not accurate at all. That was a naked round ball on hard card wad column. Don't waste your time with any ball or ball/patch that isn't tight in the bore... except if trying the donut wad which I have read works but have not tried yet.

I can also say using cartridge shotguns that 0.735" RB on a hard card wad column is very accurate to at least 50 yards as is a 0.662" RB cloth patched into a shotcup to get good fit to bore. That should work in a muzzleloader too.

Longbow

[LAGS]

I forgot to say.
On my patched ball load in the .75 rifle.
I put a 1/2" fiber , over powder wad.

[indian joe]

A couple of options that should work for you:

- Naked ball. With cylinder bore choke tube use the largest ball that will fit and preferably gets a slight swage as it goes into the bore. You'd have to accurately mic the bore then get an appropriate ball mould. 0.735" is large and would need a beveled muzzle but it didn't take much to push a 0.735" RB through my 12 ga. cartridge gun. Once fouled though it may be a challenge.
- RB + cloth patch. Personally I'd try a 0.690" RB with heavy/thick cotton patch... like old blue jean material or use two thinner patches. I find that 0.690" RB + 2 0.011" cotton patches is a nice snug fit in my 12 ga. Lyman has 0.715" RB moulds which would use a thinner patch and Round Ball Moulds in the UK will make whatever size mould you want.
- Plastic shotcup. You might also try using plastic shotcups with cushion leg cut off and round ball in the plastic shotcup. A 0.678" ball fits many standard trap wads quite well.
- Donut wad. And finally you might try a donut wad with an undersize ball like 0.690" or 0.715" then pushing a tight naked or patched ball through the bore wouldn't be an issue. BPI used to list felt wads with holes in the middle but you could punch your own out of card wads or felt wads... might have to make a jig to center the hole in the donut though. Could drill hard card wads to put enough hole to center the ball too.

With any of those options I'd be using a nitro card wad or two over the powder and then BP lubed felt or fiber wad then the round ball.

This is a good read too and might help some:

http://home.insightbb.com/~bspen/SmoothboreLoads.html

It is possible a patch will be stripped off at the choke tube but I suspect the gas pressure will hold it down and in place for the small jump. I would not have believed it but I have read posts where people have patched round balls into 12 ga. hulls then crimped and the reports are that accuracy is good which means the patch is staying in place through leaving a rough hull, opening the crimp, jumping through the forcing cone and entering the bore. If that is true then I doubt the small jump at the choke tube will be an issue but something you should be aware of.

From personal experience I can say that a 0.690" RB naked in a modified choke in my old Pedersoli side by 12 ga. was not accurate at all. That was a naked round ball on hard card wad column. Don't waste your time with any ball or ball/patch that isn't tight in the bore... except if trying the donut wad which I have read works but have not tried yet.

I can also say using cartridge shotguns that 0.735" RB on a hard card wad column is very accurate to at least 50 yards as is a 0.662" RB cloth patched into a shotcup to get good fit to bore. That should work in a muzzleloader too.

Longbow

two comments
1) done the bit (many years ago) with a patched ball in the plastic hull -16 gauge ball in a greased patch to take up the windage then loaded into the normal 12 gauge plastic shot wad and hull - cut the crimp off the end so we could see it was a solid ball load - shot great - good enough we installed a backsight and were doing decent groups at 50 yards - double gun cylinder bore .

2) LGS a couple months ago and laying on the counter is a barrel with the end tore off it - separated in a jagged tear where the screw in choke met the barrel proper - likely shooting solids through a choke tube he forgot to change - if there is the remotest possibility that a patch might be stripped off at the choke tube I would veto this project in the interests of a longer life (or at least clean underpants).

[HWooldridge]

Some of the muzzle loading folks shoot “smooth” rifles, which are just that - normal looking from the outside with a heavy walled barrel (i.e., not a musket) and regular sights but with no rifling inside the bore. I’ve seen a few targets at 100 yards that were as good as any conventional rifle. From what I’ve been told, the ball needs to exit the barrel without top or side spin to have any chance of decent groups, and the patch allows a good seal and minimizes spinning.

[longbow]

While I am not going to argue with paying attention to safety per indian joe's comment, I can't see how a stripped patch would create an unsafe issue in this case. The ball is undersize so if the patch were to strip off at the choke tube the ball would simply carry on and the patch would be blown out by the pressure behind it. I am not seeing a problem there except possibly poor accuracy if the patch does get stripped off at the choke tube. With the tapered entrance I doubt it would be an issue but could happen.

It wouldn't surprise me if a full bore solid slug shot through a tight choke tube could cause the damage in comment #2. The barrel wall is pretty thin and a full bore slug slamming into a tight choke tube could easily (I think) cause some issues in that thin wall at the choke tube. Of course with a muzzleloader you couldn't get an oversize ball or slug past the choke unless it sized to suit anyway so no issue there.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[indian joe]

While I am not going to argue with paying attention to safety per indian joe's comment, I can't see how a stripped patch would create an unsafe issue in this case. The ball is undersize so if the patch were to strip off at the choke tube the ball would simply carry on and the patch would be blown out by the pressure behind it. I am not seeing a problem there except possibly poor accuracy if the patch does get stripped off at the choke tube. With the tapered entrance I doubt it would be an issue but could happen.

It wouldn't surprise me if a full bore solid slug shot through a tight choke tube could cause the damage in comment #2. The barrel wall is pretty thin and a full bore slug slamming into a tight choke tube could easily (I think) cause some issues in that thin wall at the choke tube. Of course with a muzzleloader you couldn't get an oversize ball or slug past the choke unless it sized to suit anyway so no issue there.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

I think para 2 is likely what happened (breneke slug through a choke tube)

I am in the habit of using big patches, at least as big as muzzle cut ones, imagination says maybe the leading edge gets caught in the gap (should be no gap anyways) and the thing bunches up partly ahead of the full diameter of the ball - would not happen with full sized ball and wads rather than a patch - thats the way most fellers here shoot smoothies anyway.

[longbow]

I don't want to get off track here but I think this all relates and is helpful so I'll ask...

When you say "full sized ball" do you mean actually bore diameter or just a hair under or are you meaning a naked ball with slight rattle fit?

I ask because with a very close fit to bore diameter ball I'd have to think fouling would be a concern with BP even with lubed wads.

I've loaded BP under 0.690" RB's in both muzzleloading and breech loading shotguns and fouling was bad but with 0.690" ball there's lots of clearance. Accuracy was poor though.

Using 0.735" RB in a breech loading shotgun with smokeless powder can produce some very good accuracy so the potential is there like with smooth rifles mentioned above but you'd never muzzleload a ball bigger than bore diameter and once the bore is fouled that could be a challenge.

So there's the question, what is the windage between ball and bore? Or do you have a lube that keeps fouling soft enough that you can load a bore size ball?

Okay, that was two questions.

Longbow

[indian joe]

I don't want to get off track here but I think this all relates and is helpful so I'll ask...

When you say "full sized ball" do you mean actually bore diameter or just a hair under or are you meaning a naked ball with slight rattle fit?

I ask because with a very close fit to bore diameter ball I'd have to think fouling would be a concern with BP even with lubed wads.

I've loaded BP under 0.690" RB's in both muzzleloading and breech loading shotguns and fouling was bad but with 0.690" ball there's lots of clearance. Accuracy was poor though.

Using 0.735" RB in a breech loading shotgun with smokeless powder can produce some very good accuracy so the potential is there like with smooth rifles mentioned above but you'd never muzzleload a ball bigger than bore diameter and once the bore is fouled that could be a challenge.

So there's the question, what is the windage between ball and bore? Or do you have a lube that keeps fouling soft enough that you can load a bore size ball?

Okay, that was two questions.

Longbow

I dont shoot a smoothie - only fooled around years ago with that 16 gauge ina 12 gauge shell deal - was very impressed at the time
Son shoots a couple of em and naked ball with slight rattle fit seems to be the thing - I think it goes light card on powder, then greased felt wad, then heavier card wad, ball, lighter card over top - I like patch ball for simple sake and if that didnt work ---then plan B would either be the wad stack setup or go git a rifle.
If you get your lube worked out right then the crud goes down on the new charge and you always shooting out of a clean (semi clean) barrel

[longbow]

So back to the original question in post #1...

My opinion is indian Joe's wad column above is the simplest way to go.

The ball fit to bore is the tricky bit.

In my experience with breech loading smoothbore shotguns a a tight fitting ball, as in bore diameter or larger gives best accuracy. For muzzleloader you need to be able to get the ball down the bore and accommodate fouling.

There are not many bore diameter or near bore diameter ball molds available.

Mihec makes a ball mould at 0.732" so likely a bit oversize.

Ball Moulds in the UK will make whatever size you want.

Lyman makes 0.735", 0.715", 0.690" and 0.662" ball moulds.

Lee makes 0.690" ball moulds.

In my opinion using a ball with more than maybe 0.010" clearance will give poor accuracy.

You should slug the bore to determine exact diameter then I'd suggest buying a mould at bore diameter or a thou or two smaller and use Indian Joe's suggested wad column.

If accuracy isn't good enough then I'd be looking at a 0.690" ball with thick patch or a 0.715" ball mould with thin patch but either way use a lube felt wad under.

I don't think there is a safety issue using a patch but that is just my opinion.

Alternately you could load an undersize round ball into a plastic shotcup. Lyman has discontinued their 0.678" mould which was a good fit in many standard trap wads but Ball Moulds will make any diameter and Track of the Wolf has scissor molds in 0.680". The ballbin shotcup would make for easy loading but I'd use a lubed felt wad under the shotcup as well.

Lots of words and just my opinion but if the fit is good you should be able to get hunting level accuracy to
50 yards or better.

Longbow