How Many Shots Between....

[ChristopherO]

Cleaning the bore with PC and GC's do you normally go? This is for rifles from 1,800 to 2,200 FPS. Curious if you find there is a cut off for best accuracy. Mostly using 4227 and 2400 as powders in a 35 caliber and 45 caliber.

[Winger Ed.]

There's some lively discussions over on the Black Powder page about this.

I shoot a few BP loads in .45-70 and blow down through it and push a patch through every 2nd shot for the powder fouling.
But I understand you can go a few more in between also.
I shoot slow to to keep the barrel cooler.
It might be my imagination, but it seems like the barrel heats up faster with BP.

[popper]

PC with no leading in a 30/30, shot about 50 PB rounds before cleaning - did help just a tad. AR 308 can't remember but it was just to clean the BCG. AR BO maybe 300 rnds if PB, just gets out powder fouling.

[jsanch03]

I’m currently at about 200 rounds through the Israeli Mauser using my coated bullets. Rifling is strong still with no evidence of leading/fouling or anything else between the lands. There’s so powder fouling from the red dot load I’m using but that’s all.

As for the 9mm coated bullets I’m about 700 rounds through my Gen 5 without much of anything in the barrel. However, I’m using sport pistol which as made for coated bullets.


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[Hick]

I pull a bore snake through every 50 rounds-- and clean for real every winter (which amounts to about 500-1000 rounds)

[charlie b]

I actually tested my rifle for this.

I usually shoot 30-50 cast bullets per session. Sometimes I shoot 20-50rnds jacketed before the cast. So, 50-100 rnds per range trip. I usually clean after each session, but, I wondered if I needed to do that much cleaning. I know my .223 firing jacketed only needs cleaning after 250rounds.

To test my theories I decided to not clean the rifle between sessions. Savage 12BVSS in .308. Bullet was Acc31-210E, powder coated and gas check. Powder charge was 24gn IMR4198 at 1850fps avg.

1st 50rnds cast
2nd 40rnds cast
3rd 50rnds cast
4th 20rnds cast
It was at least a week between each range trip.

My 'normal' groups with this rifle/bullet combination are less than 1.5MOA with some less than 1MOA. Usually fired at 200yd. I normally fire 10 rounds, then pause for several minutes to let barrel cool.

I noted the group sizes and velocities. Initially the velocity increased slightly from round 1 to round 30, then it leveled off for the rest of the sessions.

Groups stayed within the 'norm' until the last 20rounds. The first 5 did ok, but, the rest started spreading out to 2MOA and then 2.5MOA. Velocity did not increase or decrease, groups just got a bit bigger.

Took the rifle home, cleaned it well. Next session I was back to <1.5MOA groups.

So, now I know that my barrel can go well over 100rnds without needing to be cleaned.

[ChristopherO]

Thank you, Gentlemen, for your real world experiences. In a clean bore my first shot is always a flyer and then they seem to settle down. My 35 Whelen with NOE 182 WFN GC PC boolit isn't giving a MOA grouping, but is still a work in progress at this stage. Normally I clean between range sessions, but with the 13 rounds through it previously next time I go to shoot I'll see how it responds to the bore as it is.

Attachment 297107

10 shots on target (notice the high right first shot), 3 other shots at other objects on the mound.

[popper]

notice the high right first shot probably due to cleaner/oil left in the bore. It will probably go away with either a fowler shot or 'dirty' bore.

[PopcornSutton]

I have a habit from shooting jacketed benchrest, where I clean after every target, whether its 7 shots or 15. I want the barrel in the same condition each time a start a target. With jacketed I used a solvent with ammonia, kroil and the now unobtainable GM Top Engine Cleaner. For PC cast I use the same, but no ammonia and a higher percentage of kroil. A couple wet patches, bronze brush, and patch out. It's amazing how clean a barrel stays shooting PC.

[ChristopherO]

Second outing, same boolits and load but did not clean from the 15 shot two weeks ago.
Saturday had heavy winds from the south, as I was shooting due east. The opening in the tree line 10 steps in front of my right spanned for 40 yards before more trees blocked the wind. The targets show the results of that 40 yards of high cross wind.
Attachment 297281
These are the last of the .3595" shanks with .3585" Front driving band (bolts into the chamber without force and taking off the PC). Even with a fouled bore shot #1 is quite high in the cardboard above the target.

Target two in the wind:
Attachment 297282
Compared to the last range session I should have waited for a calmer day. These are sized .360" with the front driving band at .3585". Not very impressive. How much is the extra .001" or the wind, or the possible need to clean the barrel I am not sure.

A bit of fun with water jugs at the 100 yards:
Attachment 297283
Protruding out of the 4th jug in the row.

Attachment 297284
If only I can tighten these groups up it will be more satifying.

[BentSprings]

I have several rifles whose bores have not been cleaned in well over 500 powder coated rounds with no accuracy degradation. It might just be gun/size/speed/heat/technique/barrel dependent?

[charlie b]

I guess it depends on what you normal/acceptable accuracy is.

[ChristopherO]

I cleaned the bore last night using tight double patches oiled, pushed from the chamber end of the barrel. It wasn't sticky or difficult, but the very tight patches did show slight shards and fine pieces of lead for quite a number of pass throughs. I wouldn't say it was heavily leaded, but it was not devoid of the metal, either. Explains the scattering of the boolits, even with the wind.

I'm thinking this range scrap, which deforms as I desire in the water jugs, is being pushed too fast, even with PC and a GC. 26 Grains of H4227 is probably at 2,000fps average. Maybe 1,850 would be a more practical loading for an extended shooting session. Larry Gibson advised another poster that his softer alloy should work well for hunting as long as he cleaned his bore every 8 to 10 shots. Probably what I would need to do for what I am currently using.

Would like to achieve a consistent 2 MOA to be satisfied.

[Petander]

I remove carbon after every coated cast /GC or not outing , one shot or a hundred.Usually Bore Tech Eliminator or Carbon Remover. Then lightly oil the barrel inside.

There should not be much of anything else left from properly coated / loaded bullets. If there is some brown (???) residue, or even lead,I clean until the barrel is clean. Always. My 2000 fps Marlin SBL 45-70 loads sometimes leave some light brown that comes out with Eliminator. But that takes 50+ rounds. I figure it has been a bad bake batch. No big deal because there is no lead. But I deep cleaned it many times to be sure. I can't sleep with lead or carbon in a barrel.

J-bullet only -barrels I also always remove carbon after every outing. I remove copper only after 30 to 100 rounds depending on the barrel. My 300 shoots good up to 60 rounds etc. Then de-copper with Bore Tech Eliminator / Copper Remover.Again, a light oil for storage, even for one night.

My completely de-coppered barrels need 3-10 foulers to group again. Any barrel, I of course completely remove storage oil before shooting.

Here is an example, a Sako 22-250. Groups from the de-coppered barrel, numbered shots. 75 meters,bags.






I haven't found similar need for foulers with coated. But my accuracy requirements for cast are generally more relaxed than with J-bullets. When I go to out club's 300 m BR competition, I always de-copper and re-foul the barrel the day before. 25 years ago I once thought my 300 WM Tikka shot the same from completely de-coppered barrel and proudly drove three hours to the competition... just to fail miserably with huge ten shot groups.

Live and learn. Each barrel is an individual so one really needs to find out by himself. As a side note,carbon deposits & humidity can kill barrels. Bore Tech products are super. And even the cheapo Lyman borescope helps a lot,you're not guessing any more.