Case mouth expansion question

[long_arm]

As pertains to single stage loading, plain based, cast bullets for .44 mag and spl.
I require a somewhat large diameter bullet to match throats (.433) and am finding the RCBS case mouth expander is putting on too much bell at the case mouth making seating/crimping difficult.

Do I need a Lyman M Die for .44 to properly expand the case?

Thanks gents.

[Winger Ed.]

Either that, or a Lee powder through the expander die shouldn't make such a large bell/flare on the case mouth.

[sharps4590]

Can you just back out the die a bit and reduce the amount of flare/bell? I wouldn't think it would take much.

[Bazoo]

The amount of bell required to get your bullets started is only part of the issue. You need a sufficient diameter expander for your bullets. .431 would probably be what you want for .433 diameter bullets. The Lyman M die isn’t sufficient, with the example I had only expanding to around .427.

You can get there with NOE expanders in a lee universal expander body. The measurements of NOE will read 435x431. The first measurement being the step portion and the second being the expander portion. That will give you .002 neck tension. Any more and you risk swaging bullet bases down. (You need to pull a bullet from a dummy cartridge to see if it’s swaging your base anytime you switch alloy or diameters or expander diameters.) Any less, with .001 of neck tension, you may be fine for lighter loads but the bullet will likely creep under recoil.

You need to also check to see the length is sufficient for your bullet. If it doesn’t expand deep enough into the case, then you will still swage your base when seated.

If you use a gas checked bullet, the gas check resists being swaged and you can get by with a smaller expander and load similar to jacketed bullets.

[long_arm]

Thank you!

[Randy Bohannon]

Order a expander plug from Buffalo Arms in the dimensions you desire ,no better expander for $20.00 . Something in the .429”-434” or their about should cover about any .44 bullet.
The expander plugs in off the shelf dies are for jacketed bullets and they bell and do not expand, not what you need for cast lead.
You will need one for pistols as they approach the different diameters faster than rifle expanders,they are made specific to your dies i.e. RCBS, Redding etc.

[gwpercle]

As pertains to single stage loading, plain based, cast bullets for .44 mag and spl.
I require a somewhat large diameter bullet to match throats (.433) and am finding the RCBS case mouth expander is putting on too much bell at the case mouth making seating/crimping difficult.

Do I need a Lyman M Die for .44 to properly expand the case?

Thanks gents.

NOE makes many different sized ( M-Type) expander plugs , for the different dia. boolits that are needed ... these expander plugs are used with the Lee Universal Neck Expanding (flaring) Die .
NOE sells both the Universal Die and plugs on their web site store . www.noebulletmoulds.com
Go to the store and check out the different sizes of M-die type expanders .
Gary

[atr]

Can you just back out the die a bit and reduce the amount of flare/bell? I wouldn't think it would take much.

I agree...you should try this first

atr

[Bazoo]

Unless you’ve already tried it with poor results, you might try a more traditional bullet diameter that would work with normal expander dimensions. If you get an RCBS cowboy expander which is .428, you could use .430 or maybe .431 bullets depending on alloy. A hard alloy will alloy a smaller expander to be used without base deformation. I am able to use the .428 cowboy expander with .430 diameter bullets made from 50/50 ww/soft alloy.

All you have to do is call RCBS and they will send you the expander for free.

[long_arm]

Bazoo, sending you a PM. Thanks for this additional info

[Dieselhorses]

If your bullets are obturating correctly, just use a universal depriming die and if cases are fire formed and can still be loaded and unloaded easily-these dimensions may be more comfortable. Just a thought.

[243winxb]

Add linotype to harden the bullets. Size to .430"

[long_arm]

Add linotype to harden the bullets. Size to .430"

243winxb, I'm not clear on how a bullet sized .430 would improve my results given the large cylinder throats. I'm listening though!

Deiselhorses,
Thanks. Makes sense to me and I'll give that a try next time at the range

[GregLaROCHE]

NOE expanders work great.

[farmbif]

just wondering, what kind of gun are you needing .433 bullets for? I lubesize all my 44 stuff at .431, and works well in several different 44's including rifles and handguns and a 444.

[243winxb]

243winxb, I'm not clear on how a bullet sized .430 would improve my results given the large cylinder throats. I'm listening though!

I posted test photos in your other post. Look at them. https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...er-throat-size

[Dieselhorses]

One other note. Thinking about the order of components here.... Sounds like your cylinder may need to be changed or "lapped". (Replacing is better). Have you ever had the cylinder throats reamed? Have you ever "slugged" your barrel? Reason I'm asking is because throats, forcing cone and bore all have to work together harmoniously. (Throats slightly less than bore). Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.

[243winxb]

.4295" Groove Dia. . Sized bullet .430" Throat .432" BHN 15 or harder.

[long_arm]

farmbif,
It's an S&W 29-2 from ~1970. From what I've picked up elsewhere it's not at all uncommon for .44s from this era to have large cylinder throats.

Deisel,
I ran a minus set of Z-class pin gauges through the cylinder. Largest I have is .4325" and that slides through all charge holes, though it's touching.
Cylinder has never been lapped/reamed.
Barrel has not been slugged. I will say about the muzzle, a .4290" pin will not enter it.
Gun was essentially NIB when I got it. I picked it up from a friend of mine who bought it new, fired three shots from it, and put it in the safe where it sat for decades.

[long_arm]

Greg,
I have a message off to NOE and spoke with RCBS this morning too.