"Plain Base" Boolits

[tangsight]

Have a quick question about the NRA rules in Black Powder Cartridge Rifle events, especially Silhouette. It concerns the definition of a "plain base" cast bullet. Had some problems with an older Lyman 457125 mould casting feathers on the base band. Had two pieces of information: 1) NOE makes a nifty little base chamfering tool which they advertise makes it easier to install a gas check, which if I had I could use to remove the feathers, but it would leave a beveled corner; 2) Paul Matthews "More How To's" book talks in glowing terms about the original Ideal Postell ("best black powder, 45 caliber, long-range bullet ever developed", page 139, end of first paragraph). On page 144 of the same book, there is a schematic and a picture of that bullet. Both show a beveled base.

Can a cast bullet have a beveled base and conform to the NRA definition of a "plain base" bullet?

[Winger Ed.]

My understanding is 'Plain base' is not about bevel, or lack of.
It means the boolit base isn't made to take a gas check.

At Black Powder speeds, you shouldn't need one anyway.

[popper]

Reduce tin or temp. Plate could also be loose.

[Don McDowell]

Plain base means it can't use a gas check.
On your mould clean it good, make sure the sprue plate isn't warped, and the blocks close up tight. Probably if the mould is clean and the sprue plate isn't warped, just need to tweet the sprue plate screw a quarter turn tighter.

[tangsight]

Thanks to everyone for the prompt replies. I had HOPED "plain base" meant "no gas checks", but it is always nice to get confirmation. As to the mould blocks, all is well. It had been some time since I last used these. Sprue plate screw was too tight. Loosened it up a touch and the feathering went away (I find the screw that holds the sprue plate is VERY sensitive; Mr. McDowell, your estimate of a quarter turn is very close. To me, the sprue plate now seems like it is loose, but the bullets are much improved. Also, I tap the handles lightly after closing. Keeps light from shining through the gap. I also had to remember ladle pressure on the plate while pouring after I adjusted the sprue plate screw tightness. Thanks again.

[.22-10-45]

1+ on the old Ideal slight bevel base. This is really more of a very slight chamfer than a real bevel. Makes loading into case mouth easier & I believe makes getting a perfect base when casting easier. The bean counters nixed the idea probably because of the care needed to have "cherry" just below mould bottom surface. I think some of these bevel bases on Ideal & early Lyman moulds are from using a cherry designed for the Perfection moulds..adjustable base pin allowing various bullet weights from same mould. When they cut a non adjustable mould to a certain weight..cutter was positioned just shy of next lube groove & slight bevel on side of groove was cut in bullet base edge.

[tangsight]

To 22-10-45: Fascinating. The Matthews book also mentions he (Matthews) had Steve Brooks custom make him a mould of the original Ideal Postell. The Brooks Moulds website advertises a base pour mould of the original Postell (as well as a mould of the revised version), but the photo doesn't show enough detail to tell if Brooks included the "slight chamfer", to use your description, which I like better than mine. This is a completely different subject; is there more than a "loading into case mouth easier" advantage? A ballistic advantage, maybe? Like a "mini" boat tail?

[Winger Ed.]

A ballistic advantage, maybe? Like a "mini" boat tail?

I doubt it.
When I was researching the best DEWC for my S&W 52, the old school and discontinued Lyman mold was hailed
as the best by folks that shot it-- and did well in competition.

If you look at it closely, there is more of a bevel on one end than the other.
There is old archived threads discussing which end you could load it from for more accuracy.
(sprue cut up or down)

It seemed of those that tried it both ways couldn't tell any difference.

[Don McDowell]

The original postel BACO now catalogs is cut from a bullet cast from an 1881 Ideal postel mould. It has a very slight bevel on the base. The thinking on that original bullet and the beveled base was that it helped cut down on the windsheer and finning affect on the bullet at long distance?
It does work well in the 45-70.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-530-...59530p1bb.html

[Lead pot]

To 22-10-45: Fascinating. The Matthews book also mentions he (Matthews) had Steve Brooks custom make him a mould of the original Ideal Postell. The Brooks Moulds website advertises a base pour mould of the original Postell (as well as a mould of the revised version), but the photo doesn't show enough detail to tell if Brooks included the "slight chamfer", to use your description, which I like better than mine. This is a completely different subject; is there more than a "loading into case mouth easier" advantage? A ballistic advantage, maybe? Like a "mini" boat tail?

The Postell mould listed at Buffalo Arms is about as close to the original Ideal postell 457-132. Brooks original is not close to the original. The base band is to large and it's a flat base. Also the ogive is too blunt.
Even the Lyman 457-132 is not the same as the Ideal.
The original Ideal 457-132 also came adjustable you could make three different usable weights.

If I had just one .45 caliber rifle and was just wanting to shoot the GG bullets the bullet that Buff Arms has listed would be it.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

If I were to go back to grease groove bullets in long range, for my 45-100 I would definitely get one of BACOs Postells. I had a old ideal mould that was a perfect duplicate of the original ideal, it shot very well in my 45-70. I have a second backup NEI mould, of the exact same bullet, nei moulds are often hard to cast with.

Kenny Wasserburger

[tangsight]

Thanks for the insights, as always. I did not know that Buffalo Arms was the source for the Ideal Postell with the slightly chamfered base, nor that it was a good choice for my 45-70. The website says out of stock, but I am sure (though I will check) they probably do not manufacture that particular boolit but every so often. Maybe if I ask for forty or fifty of them I'd get them sooner?

[Don McDowell]

They don't make hardly any of the moulds on their list until someone orders one. Call them place the order and usually in 2-3 weeks it'll show up.

[Chill Wills]

The original postel BACO now catalogs is cut from a bullet cast from an 1881 Ideal postel mould. It has a very slight bevel on the base. The thinking on that original bullet and the beveled base was that it helped cut down on the windsheer and finning affect on the bullet at long distance?
It does work well in the 45-70.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/459-530-...59530p1bb.html

The print shows only a 0.441" nose. No bore-ride. I have the old Ideal of the Postell, I may have even given Zack a copy back when he was looking into this. My Ideal does not shoot all that well in my 45-70's with that small nose diameter.

[Don McDowell]

All I can tell you Michael, that bullet used to base that off of was cast from an 1881 mould, and that I've seen it shoot quite well at 1000 from 2 different 45-70's is some pretty miserable wind conditions.

[Chill Wills]

? The 1881 military 500gr bullet?

"All I can tell you Michael, that bullet used to base that off of was cast from an 1881 mould"

[Gunlaker]

So Don, Zack ended up liking that one? I asked him about it a while after he got it and he had done a little testing but said the jury was still out. Is the .441" nose meant to deal with shooting with lots of fouling? I've never shot a bullet with so small a nose, except for a couple of tapered schuetzen bullets but they are an entirely different concept.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Chris I don’t know if he likes it or not
He sent me a 100 of them I shot some of them and saw possibility so ordered the mould
Loaded some in 45-70 and two new shooters used them at the 1000 yard match at Alliance
I liked what I saw spotting for them
If I ever decide to shoot a greaser again this would be the one


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[Don McDowell]

Here’s what I mean by saw some possibility with that Baco postel
Took 15 of the bullets Zack sent lubed them , took a wag at a load for the 77 in 45-90 and off to my 1000 yard target we went



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[Dave T]

...and off to my 1000 yard target we went...

Sir,

I am green, yellow, orange, and red with envy. (smiley face goes here)

Dave