People who make up their own loads

[fredj338]

LOL, for the people that say never reload without vetted data, you just dont have enough reloading experience. Just how does one load for a wildcat with no data? That is right, you have to learn how to extrapolate. It is really no diff when loading without data for a given powder & bullet in conventional calibers. You need a chrono & get comfy with powder burn rate charts.
I load WST in several caliber, no data, but I know its burn rate & can use starting data for a faster powder that does have data & work my loads up comparing vel to the book data. Been handloading for 45 years without incident. I currently load for 3 wildcats & my 404jeffery, pretty much a wildcat.

[The Dar]

Wolfdog91: I have noticed that since you've started posting on this site most of the questions that you ask result in multiple pages of spirited debate and information & opinion sharing. Good on you!

Indeed, the man is a thinker. Wouldn't it be great for several members to meet at a restaurant for a meal together to share ideas? There are several members here I'd like to meet.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I think you hit the nail on the head as far as the reality and the perception of the issue. Anyone with common sense doing this compares very similar case volume to known loads using powders in the same burning range to again to known loads. It hard to get too far off the reservation using this method. Perception (by some) is that the people that doing this just pull stuff from the air. Even the people playing with pulled down cannon powder and duplex loading are building off of other peoples data.

I do believe it goes deeper than that and comes down to personally types. Some personalities are very much color within the lines and some personality types are color outside the lines. I never understood how different these types can be until work sent myself and a coworker to an out of state conference without a rental car. We opted to rent a car together and see some of the sites. My coworker was a color within the lines type and a nice guy, however, he was driving and we mistakenly found ourselves in a huge almost mile square parking lot. It was Sunday and it had zero cars or people in it. It did have direction arrows up and down every lane. The entrance was one-way, and the exit was on the opposite end. Had I been driving I would have just turned around and drove the 100 feet the wrong way to the road since there were zero people and zero cars as far as one could see. He had to follow the lines and would not even drive diagonal to get to the exit. Driving up and down each line added many miles to that event. I could not take it anymore and we had it out. He would not let me drive out but once out we agreed I would do 100% of the driving for the remainder of the trip. The mere thought of driving against or across the arrows/lines freaked him out.

My guess is the color within the lines personality types don't purchase much powder from http://www.surpluspowder.com/gunpowder.html either.

Was he German?

[M-Tecs]

Was he German?

Not sure but his name ended with ski so my guess is Polish. I am 100% German heritage.

[dverna]

LOL, for the people that say never reload without vetted data, you just dont have enough reloading experience. Just how does one load for a wildcat with no data? That is right, you have to learn how to extrapolate. It is really no diff when loading without data for a given powder & bullet in conventional calibers. You need a chrono & get comfy with powder burn rate charts.
I load WST in several caliber, no data, but I know its burn rate & can use starting data for a faster powder that does have data & work my loads up comparing vel to the book data. Been handloading for 45 years without incident. I currently load for 3 wildcats & my 404jeffery, pretty much a wildcat.

New reloaders lack the experience you mentioned....thus they should stay with known loads at the start.

New reloaders are not demonstrating common sense if they acquire a wildcat. Lack of common sense in the purchase decision may migrate to lack of common sense in load development.

In my case, the only time I have had to go “off the reservation” is for low powered loads. I had the experience to know what powders could do that safely.

For the majority of folks reloading, there is no need to experiment. What someone with over 40 years of experience can do may not apply to the new crop of reloaders

[Wolfdog91]

Indeed, the man is a thinker. Wouldn't it be great for several members to meet at a restaurant for a meal together to share ideas? There are several members here I'd like to meet.

Lol y'all would pull your hair out dealing with me

[414gates]

A basic guideline when you have to have an odd load of something, is to look at the load data for a case with similar capacity, of the same bullet diameter, and close bullet weight.

That can form a sensible basis for when there is no specific load data.

You should never load blind. If you picked up a jug of some powder from somebody who had it lying around, even if they tell you what they think it is, just use it as plant fertiliser.

You also cannot make any powder do all jobs. I once came across a fellow reloader who wanted one powder for everything. When everything is from 9mm Luger to 300 Win Mag, it's not a sensible ask.

You may have a quantity of a particular powder, and want to use it in a particular caliber, but the load data has every other powder listed for the caliber, except the one you have. You have plant fertiliser. Get the right powder.

When doing load any load development with smokeless powder, a chronograph is required. A very useful tool for determining maximum pressure loads in virgin brass is a 1 in 10,000 micrometer.

There are people who do not or won't use a chronograph, and all will be well untill something goes wrong because of too high pressure.

[Rcmaveric]

A basic guideline when you have to have an odd load of something, is to look at the load data for a case with similar capacity, of the same bullet diameter, and close bullet weight.

That can form a sensible basis for when there is no specific load data.

You should never load blind. If you picked up a jug of some powder from somebody who had it lying around, even if they tell you what they think it is, just use it as plant fertiliser.

You also cannot make any powder do all jobs. I once came across a fellow reloader who wanted one powder for everything. When everything is from 9mm Luger to 300 Win Mag, it's not a sensible ask.

You may have a quantity of a particular powder, and want to use it in a particular caliber, but the load data has every other powder listed for the caliber, except the one you have. You have plant fertiliser. Get the right powder.

When doing load any load development with smokeless powder, a chronograph is required. A very useful tool for determining maximum pressure loads in virgin brass is a 1 in 10,000 micrometer.

There are people who do not or won't use a chronograph, and all will be well untill something goes wrong because of too high pressure.

Lol i feel attacked. Just kidding. Unique and tight group i made work for all caliber from 380 acp to 270 win and 12g. But those were plinking and fun loads.

But yes i ageee with picking the right burn rate (or peak and start pressure) powder for the chosen task.

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[rbuck351]

I inherited 25# of an unknown powder and wasn't about to throw it out. Needing to figure out the approximate burn rate, so I started with the idea that it could be very fast even though it is a large stick powder. Loaded a few grains in a 22H with a cast boolit and fired. It left unburned powder and a very rounded primer. Worked up to a full case with same results. Went to a 223 with same results. Next was a 308 with some signs of burn clean up at full case. 358N next with similar result to the 308. I don't have any large case small bore such as 264 Win mag so I went to a small booster charge of red dot with the rest of the case full of unknown powder. This showed an increase in powder burn and velocity increase. I kept increasing the booster charge up to 9grs and decreasing the unknown which cleaned up the powder burn giving a bit over 2000fps (200 gr cast) and primer still rounded. It is reasonably accurate as well. So yeah,I load off the charts. But I do the same with book loads as well as no other rifle is exactly like mine. I work up loads until I get the velocity I think I should or pressure signs show up. I have a 270 that doesn't like most manuals max loads so I stop early. I have a 350 Rem mag that goes a bit over max with no signs of excess pressure. It shoots most accurate a gr under where I stopped testing. As always, start low and work up. I have been loading for 60 years and I do not recommend new loaders do this. Even with book loads, approach max book loads with caution. Especially with the new short mags as they are using higher pressure to try to get the velocity of their big brothers.

[Winger Ed.]

I inherited 25# of an unknown powder though it is a large stick powder.

Just a wild guess, but that sounds like pull down GI surplus powder from 20mm.
From Mr. Barletts recommendation when he sells it like that is that it's good for .50BMG and belted magnums.

[MT Gianni]

Just a wild guess, but that sounds like pull down GI surplus powder from 20mm.
From Mr. Barletts recommendation when he sells it like that is that it's good for .50BMG and belted magnums.

Large stick powder made me think 5010, indeed a BMG powder.

[Winger Ed.]

Large stick powder made me think 5010, indeed a BMG powder.

Not exactly a rule of thumb, but larger & larger 'sticks' usually means a slower and slower burn rate.
Sort of like the different sizes of grains & speed of Holy Black in relation to the number of 'Fs' it has.

[Kosh75287]

I am not a believer in the chronograph telling you much about how safe a load is. In fact, not a believer in using one at all...even though I own one. But if it works for smarter guys than I, so be it.
If you decide to use one to evaluate the safety of your loads, get a detailed procedure of how to do it, and post it here for comments. I have never seen anything that makes sense.

It sounds like you misunderstand the purpose of the chronograph in determining whether a given load is safe. It is more a determinant of "safe" vs. "unsafe", rather than "more safe" vs. "less safe".
The idea is to plot velocities vs. charge weight and be watchful for a "flattening" of the line, where there is little increase, no increase, or even a DEcrease in velocity with heavier charges of propellant. ANY of these behaviours are fairly certain signs that the maximum load with that charge weight/propellant/projectile combination has been reached, that higher charges are inadvisable and a slightly lower charge weight may be as good as it gets.
Let's pretend that 10.5 grains of "Powder X" gives 1115 f/s with 250 gr. RNFP in a .45 Colt, 10.6/"Powder X"/250 gr. RNFP gives 1151 f/s and 10.7/"PowderX"/250 RNFP gives 1157 f/s. The very small positive change in velocity obtained with 10.7 gr. suggests that 10.6 gr is the safe max, giving similar velocity but (probably) lower pressure than 10.7. Erring on the side of caution and going to 10.5 may even yield better accuracy.
NOW, let's try the same thing with 17.5/"Powder Y"/250 rnfp (1129 f/s), 17.6/"Powder Y"/250 rnfp (1154 f/s), 17.7/"Powder Y"/250 rnfp (1173 f/s). With either propellant, I'm getting ~1150 f/s with the middle load. But the next higher increment with "Powder Y" is larger, suggesting I'm not as close to excessive pressures as I might be with "Powder X". I'm burning ~60% more propellant in loads using "Powder Y", but the extra margin of safety, to MY way of thinking, is worth the extra propellant burned.
At least that's how I approach using a chronograph to determine if I have a safe load.

[.22-10-45]

Hello, Wolfdog91. You seem to be very interested in cast bullet shooting and are asking alot of questions. May I suggest joining the Cast Bullet Association? (CBA) we have a very nice thick book available intitled Cast Bullets For Beginner & Expert by Joseph F. Brennan. Everything about lead bullet shooting from muzzleloaders up to jacketed bullet velocity loads. Plus a nice magazine the Fouling Shot comes every 2 months. I feel anyone who loves lead owes it to themselves to join this interesting association. Just my .02.

[Bigslug]

It would also be helpful to know what specifically Wolfdog91 is trying to NOT blow himself up with.

I mentioned historical stuff and historical sources earlier.

.44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45-70 rounds that were developed in the black powder era for black powder firearms. Those are well known examples and there are often different "levels" of load data for them in certain manuals to reflect loads that have been worked up in stronger, modern guns (Redhawks, S&W 29, Ruger No.1) vs the original Peacemakers and Trapdoors.

The 6.5x55 and 7x57 Mauser rounds were developed in the earlier iterations of Mauser's bolt actions before his cookie dough was fully baked with the 1898. As such, the published load data for them is based around the strength of the older guns. Chambered in '98's, Ruger 77's, Remington 700's, you can start gentle probing the borders of the reservation.

My point is that you want to educate yourself on the limitations of your launch pad, before you go looking into the limitations of the rocket. Remember that the .357 and .44 Magnums are lengthened versions of the .38 Special and .44 Special - - developed not so they could hold more powder, but so the hotter loads couldn't fit in the chambers of the older guns not rated for them. One of the common cartridge debates out there is .44 Mag vs. .45 Colt, and it always gets clouded by the black powder origins of the 80 years older Colt round and the early guns chambered for it. In circumstances like that, you have to really treat them like completely separate rounds for completely separate guns, as "Ruger Redhawk/Blackhawk" only loads can junk a Peacemaker in short order.

[Rcmaveric]

My point is that you want to educate yourself on the limitations of your launch pad, before you go looking into the limitations of the rocket

Made me chuckle. Good word choice.

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[Wolfdog91]

It would also be helpful to know what specifically Wolfdog91 is trying to NOT blow himself up with.

I mentioned historical stuff and historical sources earlier.

.44 Special, .45 Colt, and .45-70 rounds that were developed in the black powder era for black powder firearms. Those are well known examples and there are often different "levels" of load data for them in certain manuals to reflect loads that have been worked up in stronger, modern guns (Redhawks, S&W 29, Ruger No.1) vs the original Peacemakers and Trapdoors.

The 6.5x55 and 7x57 Mauser rounds were developed in the earlier iterations of Mauser's bolt actions before his cookie dough was fully baked with the 1898. As such, the published load data for them is based around the strength of the older guns. Chambered in '98's, Ruger 77's, Remington 700's, you can start gentle probing the borders of the reservation.

My point is that you want to educate yourself on the limitations of your launch pad, before you go looking into the limitations of the rocket. Remember that the .357 and .44 Magnums are lengthened versions of the .38 Special and .44 Special - - developed not so they could hold more powder, but so the hotter loads couldn't fit in the chambers of the older guns not rated for them. One of the common cartridge debates out there is .44 Mag vs. .45 Colt, and it always gets clouded by the black powder origins of the 80 years older Colt round and the early guns chambered for it. In circumstances like that, you have to really treat them like completely separate rounds for completely separate guns, as "Ruger Redhawk/Blackhawk" only loads can junk a Peacemaker in short order.

Egh nothing in general really . Pistol rifle magnums the process in general is interesting. I haven't really specified anything because seem to be the best way to get folks on here talking and more infor out there. Seems every time I even just name off a rifle or caliber and an example I just get a abc deal ( not that it's a bad thing just doesn't help me much most of the time)and the thread dies

[Bigslug]

Egh nothing in general really . Pistol rifle magnums the process in general is interesting. I haven't really specified anything because seem to be the best way to get folks on here talking and more infor out there. Seems every time I even just name off a rifle or caliber and an example I just get a abc deal ( not that it's a bad thing just doesn't help me much most of the time)and the thread dies

I guess the first thing I would throw out then is to ask "What AREN'T you finding data for?"

The 50th edition of Lyman's manual is turning out to be a hugely valuable thing because it has - for example - pretty standard data sets for jacketed bullets in the .30-06, and it ALSO has VERY DIFFERENT load data appropriate to loading the same cartridge with cast. If you poke around in there for the "closely related animals" that resemble your oddball project, you're well on your way.

If you seek widely enough, you'll probably find you're not the first person to go down whatever road you're planning to travel - you just have to find their trail markers.

[rbuck351]

Yeah, I have a friend that loads for a 50BMG and had some 5010. Measuring the powder kernals, they matched 5010 and after testing, I believe that is what it is.
I also bought a # of powder (gun show) in a can marked with a magic marker as H110. It didn't look like H110 or any other powder I have seen. Again I started with about 3grs in the 22H with a 40gr boolit and worked up to 4.5grs which makes a nice 22lr replacement round. I still don't know what it is ( it appears to be in the fast pistol powder range) but I have found a good use for it.

[Winger Ed.]

Being you have 25 pounds instead of a few 1 or 4 pound containers----
there's REAL good chance that it's GI pull down/surplus.

Back in my .50BMG days, I'd buy 4 eight pound jugs at a time from Mr. Bartlett.
They came in what reminded me of plastic anti-freeze bottles.