Lyman M die substitute

[pull the trigger]

Just sharing my discovery while I was searching for an m die for my 32-20 and striking out. Maybe Im the last to know, but NOE, makes an m die type insert that fits in the Lee universal flare die. They have a very big selection that covers just about anything you want at $7.50 each. Just a heads up for the future.

[beshears]

I make my own using a Lee thru powder die. I can make them on a lathe and just drop them in the die and screw top on. I also make custom expander plugs for my Paper Patch cartridges.

[Glwenzl]

I have that exact same expander plus several others. I really like them a lot! It’s nice that they make many different sizes for your needs. I even have one for 22 caliber for loading a certain flat based bullet on my progressive that previously would come out of the bullet feeder and fall off. NOE expander was a precision fit for this bullets not over expanding. It’s really the best way to go IMHO

[Taterhead]

NOE has some innovative tools, with their M expander plugs being among them!

As you say, great prices too.

[oley55]

After having invested a small fortune in m-style type case expanding dies I find the NOE to be better than than all others. In fewer words, I really like the NOE dies/system.

[Taterhead]

What I like about NOE is that they come in so many sizes. Lyman M dies work great, but they simply don't offer many of the plus-sized neck diameters that are often needed for cast bullets.

FWIW, I think a lot of people don't recognize the value of what NOE is doing since they think of a neck expander as merely the tool that imparts flair on a case mouth. They don't think of the interior diameter of the necks. Ironically, Lee doesn't help with the naming of the "Universal Expander". They use the term "expander' to be a function unlike virtually all other expanders in the industry that set an interior diameter and round out that ID.

[pull the trigger]

I agree, and I really don't think a lot of people know about these plugs either.

[Dutchman]

Make my own.

[3584ELK]

I looked at the NOE selection and while they appear to be precision made, and certainly provide a variety of sizes, the length seems to be insufficient. In practice, a case neck needs to accommodate the boolit and gas check. It appears (without having purchased or used them) that the NOE plug only flares the very first part of the case neck. This would seem to require forcing the boolit down into the case neck and perhaps leaving a concave section near the case shoulder if the boolit were not seated into the powder room.

The Lyman M die forces a length of expander down into the case neck, expanding the entire neck length.

Maybe I have this all wrong...

[racepres]

I looked at the NOE selection and while they appear to be precision made, and certainly provide a variety of sizes, the length seems to be insufficient. In practice, a case neck needs to accommodate the boolit and gas check. It appears (without having purchased or used them) that the NOE plug only flares the very first part of the case neck. This would seem to require forcing the boolit down into the case neck and perhaps leaving a concave section near the case shoulder if the boolit were not seated into the powder room.

The Lyman M die forces a length of expander down into the case neck, expanding the entire neck length.

Maybe I have this all wrong...

Mine dont...only a very small portion is that bit extra large..

[toallmy]

I have several Lyman M-dies that I have used loading cast boollits but I had to have custom plugs cut to expand the case mouth to easily except larger diameter cast boollits .
Since I have discovered the NOE plugs that drop into the Lee flaring die - I have stopped having to get custom plugs cut to load cast boolits . NOE plugs come in various diameters with a 2 step expander like the M- dies but with a larger selection of ( cast boolit friendly ) sizes .
As you may have noticed I love them .

[Taterhead]

I looked at the NOE selection and while they appear to be precision made, and certainly provide a variety of sizes, the length seems to be insufficient. In practice, a case neck needs to accommodate the boolit and gas check. It appears (without having purchased or used them) that the NOE plug only flares the very first part of the case neck. This would seem to require forcing the boolit down into the case neck and perhaps leaving a concave section near the case shoulder if the boolit were not seated into the powder room.

The Lyman M die forces a length of expander down into the case neck, expanding the entire neck length.

Maybe I have this all wrong...

There are shorter pistol and longer rifle plugs. The rifle plugs I've used have been plenty long for the entire neck. I wonder if you were looking at the pistol versions?

[rbuck351]

I used an old 45acp flaring die body and make my own version of the Lyman expander flaring dies in whatever size I need.

[3584ELK]

There are shorter pistol and longer rifle plugs. The rifle plugs I've used have been plenty long for the entire neck. I wonder if you were looking at the pistol versions?

Could well be. Thank you, I may give these a try. I need a .367 expander and no one except NOE seems to know that 9.3mm rifles even exist.

[megasupermagnum]

I've been using them for years, I didn't realize people still used the Lyman M die anymore, since the NOE version is superior. To be blunt, they are such a good idea that is horribly executed. NOE's version that fits in a Lee dies is a fantastic idea. A plug that expands the case the full length of the bullet is a fantastic idea. Unfortunately they do not work that great.

The problem with the NOE plugs is twofold. First they are very long, and straight sided. They have a huge amount of surface to grip brass with. Secondly they come rough as a cob. It's like trying to seat a bullet made of sandpaper down into your case. In all my years reloading I have never stuck a case into a full length sizing die. In the few years I've been using these NOE plugs, I've ripped more rims off of cases than I care to remember. Besides being tough to use, the other problem I keep having is scraping lead. I've had people argue with me about this. Well, I'd love to hear a solution. I've got at least a few sizes in every caliber from 30 to 45 caliber. Every single one will shave lead. The .004 larger section is inadequate plain and simple. A flare is so much better, and I'm baffled why anyone would prefer the straight section to a flare.

I have worked out solutions though. If you want to use the plugs as-is, the first thing to do is chuck them in a drill, and polish with a fine sandpaper. Second you need to use lube. The soot from a fired case sometimes works well enough, depending on how much you are expanding. I like to give cases a shot of Hornady one-shot lube, an this works really well. Do NOT use cleaned cases. Dry tumbled cases would be ok, just nothing that cleans the inside of the case. As for the flare, the only thing I figured out is to run the cases through a second time with the normal tapered Lee universal expander plugs to give the cases a proper flare.

If you want to go a step farther, I've made some prototypes of plugs that are vastly superior. They do not need any lube, in fact they run through dry easier than a polished and lubed straight sided plug. I'll post a picture below of the approximate dimensions for a 44 caliber plug, which can be used as a general idea for other calibers. The key is really just cutting a recess so that you don't have so much surface area. I don't know how I could modify a plug to give it a flare. I used a plug .002" big, and polished the "expander ball" part down to where I needed, then used a file to kind of make it a flaring die. You will notice I also drilled out the center so powder can flow through. I see no reason at all for them not to have this. Maybe not everyone would use it, but it sure is nice to be able to flare, and drop powder at the same time. It is a necessary feature to use these on a progressive press, unless you have an excess of stations, which very few do. You will also notice I have a "modified" and "compromise" shown. The modified is about how mine turned out, or at least what I had in mind. The compromise I think would be even better, allowing the straight section, as well as a flare if you need more. I think it would also work better with an automatic powder measure.

I have contacted both NOE and Lee about making these. Lee considered it, but they are worried they will not operate an automatic powder measure, so they won't do it for liability reasons. NOE never has got back to me. I hope one day he considers it. For now I've more or less given up on the NOE plugs. I only use them for special instances. For the most part I'm back to using normal Lee expander dies, they work so much easier, and they flare adequately.



Modified NOE top. Standard Lee powder through expander plug bottom.

[gwpercle]

Some of us can't make our own ... I don't have the tools or ability ... So for me the NOE expander plugs are the answer ... every size you need and economical .
Whenever I order a NOE mould I order a correctly sized NOE M-expander plug along with it !
Gary

[3584ELK]

I've been using them for years, I didn't realize people still used the Lyman M die anymore, since the NOE version is superior. To be blunt, they are such a good idea that is horribly executed. NOE's version that fits in a Lee dies is a fantastic idea. A plug that expands the case the full length of the bullet is a fantastic idea. Unfortunately they do not work that great.

The problem with the NOE plugs is twofold. First they are very long, and straight sided. They have a huge amount of surface to grip brass with. Secondly they come rough as a cob. It's like trying to seat a bullet made of sandpaper down into your case. In all my years reloading I have never stuck a case into a full length sizing die. In the few years I've been using these NOE plugs, I've ripped more rims off of cases than I care to remember. Besides being tough to use, the other problem I keep having is scraping lead. I've had people argue with me about this. Well, I'd love to hear a solution. I've got at least a few sizes in every caliber from 30 to 45 caliber. Every single one will shave lead. The .004 larger section is inadequate plain and simple. A flare is so much better, and I'm baffled why anyone would prefer the straight section to a flare.

I have worked out solutions though. If you want to use the plugs as-is, the first thing to do is chuck them in a drill, and polish with a fine sandpaper. Second you need to use lube. The soot from a fired case sometimes works well enough, depending on how much you are expanding. I like to give cases a shot of Hornady one-shot lube, an this works really well. Do NOT use cleaned cases. Dry tumbled cases would be ok, just nothing that cleans the inside of the case. As for the flare, the only thing I figured out is to run the cases through a second time with the normal tapered Lee universal expander plugs to give the cases a proper flare.

If you want to go a step farther, I've made some prototypes of plugs that are vastly superior. They do not need any lube, in fact they run through dry easier than a polished and lubed straight sided plug. I'll post a picture below of the approximate dimensions for a 44 caliber plug, which can be used as a general idea for other calibers. The key is really just cutting a recess so that you don't have so much surface area. I don't know how I could modify a plug to give it a flare. I used a plug .002" big, and polished the "expander ball" part down to where I needed, then used a file to kind of make it a flaring die. You will notice I also drilled out the center so powder can flow through. I see no reason at all for them not to have this. Maybe not everyone would use it, but it sure is nice to be able to flare, and drop powder at the same time. It is a necessary feature to use these on a progressive press, unless you have an excess of stations, which very few do. You will also notice I have a "modified" and "compromise" shown. The modified is about how mine turned out, or at least what I had in mind. The compromise I think would be even better, allowing the straight section, as well as a flare if you need more. I think it would also work better with an automatic powder measure.

I have contacted both NOE and Lee about making these. Lee considered it, but they are worried they will not operate an automatic powder measure, so they won't do it for liability reasons. NOE never has got back to me. I hope one day he considers it. For now I've more or less given up on the NOE plugs. I only use them for special instances. For the most part I'm back to using normal Lee expander dies, they work so much easier, and they flare adequately.



Modified NOE top. Standard Lee powder through expander plug bottom.

You did a much better job of addressing my concerns than I!

Thank you for your drawings and explanation. I have ordered a .375 M die thinking I would turn down the stem to .367". I have yet to order the NOE setup- one step at a time!

[cwlongshot]

just sharing my discovery while i was searching for an m die for my 32-20 and striking out. Maybe im the last to know, but noe, makes an m die type insert that fits in the lee universal flare die. They have a very big selection that covers just about anything you want at $7.50 each. Just a heads up for the future.

tes these are awesome!!!!

[uscra112]

I have six of the NOE plugs, They did not come with a rough surface - needed no polishing. I used to make my own, but at NOE's prices I no longer bother. Only instance where NOE's would not work well is the obsolete ultra-long-skinny .28-30-120 case which tends to tilt in the shellholder and bulge to one side if the expander doesn't have a pilot about 1-1/2" long to keep it straight. I made my own for that application.

[rbuck351]

A mini lathe is one of the best additions to my loading bench that I have ever made.