336 only shooting leverevolution

[1hole]

1. Your English is fine, you're at least as good as me and it's my ONLY language!

2. Don't agonize over trivial things like cast bullet diameters until you can consistently get decent accuracy with jacketed bullets.

Your excellent Marlin 336 is a medium range game in deep woods rifle and you'll be shooting game bullets; neither are target grade so be reasonable about accuracy. I expect 2" groups or slightly better @ 100 yards from most Marlin 336 rifles and a reliable point-blank killing trajectory to 150 yards or a little further.

Full charges of IMR 4064 or Varget are my most consistently accurate lever gun powders. If you can't get one of them perhaps you can find something with nearly the same burn rate.

[Bulliwig]

You are so uprising @1hole!

That is the crucial point, i know my marlin is no Target/ benchrest gun and it doesn't need to be one. The frustrating Point in this adventure is: with hornadys factory leverevolution ftx it does shoot groups from 2“-3“, which is as good as i can shoot at a distance of 100 m with open Sights. If i could get comparable accuracy out of any of my reloads i would be really glad (even more so with cast).
But i am reluctant to give up casting and reloading to buy ammunition for 45€ per 20.

4064 and varget are a little slower than the n130 i use. I had this powder because of my .45-70 and i wished not to buy another kg of powder, because i am restricted in Storage to 3 kilograms.

[ShooterAZ]

Don't give up! I use the 311041 with LVR powder in my 30-30's with excellent accuracy. As others have mentioned, you may want to use a little harder alloy. I use a mix of 75% Wheelweights to 25% Linotype. Some might say it's too hard for hunting, but the deer I have shot with it didn't say so. Also, sizing to .311 will most likely help with your problems. 4064 and 3031 work well in the 30-30, but LVR has given me the best accuracy and velocity with lower pressures. Sneak up on the max loads and you will find a happy place.

[Bulliwig]

Wheelweights are made of zinc in Germany for the last 2 decades or so, so i use mostly range scrap which i mix with about 1 quarter of monotype. I was lucky to get about 190 pounds of it for nearly nothing. Could have bit my *** as the remaining about 1000 pounds had gone to the scrapyard. But all i have will probably serve me well after the time lead bullets will be completely forbidden.

My alloy is around 15-18 bhn, according to my readings of the lee testing kit. Nonetheless in every other caliber i use it, it works really well. Except 9mm maybe, but this cartridge is a pain to load and i sold my SIG.

By the way @shooterAZ: what is your load with lvr and 30-30?

[Wilderness]

You are so uprising @1hole!

That is the crucial point, i know my marlin is no Target/ benchrest gun and it doesn't need to be one. The frustrating Point in this adventure is: with hornadys factory leverevolution ftx it does shoot groups from 2“-3“, which is as good as i can shoot at a distance of 100 m with open Sights. If i could get comparable accuracy out of any of my reloads i would be really glad (even more so with cast).
But i am reluctant to give up casting and reloading to buy ammunition for 45€ per 20.

4064 and varget are a little slower than the n130 i use. I had this powder because of my .45-70 and i wished not to buy another kg of powder, because i am restricted in Storage to 3 kilograms.

Bulliwig - I think this is your first mention of 100 meters. A lot can go wrong with the human element, and the wind, and the clarity of your aiming mark between 50 and 100. I do my iron sight testing at 50. I shoot 100, 150 and 200 only when I have good groups at 50. With an iron sighted lever action I consider "really good" to be 1" at 50 m, although with the same load individual groups may wander out to 1.5" or 2".

My choice of target at 50 meters is the slow fire pistol target with 8" black aiming mark BUT with a 2" circular white patch glued inside the 10 ring. Lateral aiming error is minimal with this setup. Vertical aiming error is controlled by moving the front sight up towards the top the white until a consistent picture can be achieved, e.g. the point where the clear white over the front sight just starts to blur to grey. This may not be the center of the patch, but that is not the point. Consistent sight picture is the point.

At 100 I use a 4" patch on a larger black background, at 150 it is 6" and at 200 it is 8".

The other method for serious group shooting is to fit a Lyman 17A front sight with your peep. The 17A is used with either a post or a circle (peep) element. Looking through two circles to frame a circular black bullseye is nearly as good as using a scope. And the circular 2" patch in the centre does still help even with the 17A. At 50 m with the 8" aiming mark I use a .160" element (plastic element reamed out, or one made of perspex - another story). For hunting you can revert to the post element.

Oh, and those full power .30-30 loads, especially LeverEvolution, may beat you up shooting from the bench with a curved buttplate - a sand bag or pillow between the rifle and your shoulder may help with the flinch. Longer term, a lace-on leather pad can take some of the bite out of the buttplate.

[Bulliwig]

Thank you for your reply, wilderness.
I am limited to 100 m, my gun Range only allows .22 up to pistol caliber levers at the 50 m range.
As a more or less talented bullseye shooter i can shoot 2“-3“ groups at 100m all day, even more so with peep sights.
But maybe i should try my marlin with a scope, just to be sure.
Oh, and i use a pachmayer slip on decelerator pad for my bench shooting. Just for the sake of not bruising my shoulder with the slim brass buttplate.

[Wilderness]

Yes, I am spoiled for choice as regards ranges. If you are confident of your shooting, and have all the bases covered, then you should be able to take your groups at face value. This gets us back to the question of "what is going on?", when you have a rifle that should be very good indeed.

I have no recent experience of factory .30-30 ammo, but for reloading I have found Sierra bullets, 150 or 170 gns, to be markedly superior to everything else. LeverEvolution powder is good for top speed, but Winchester 748 seems to be a little more accurate.

Jacketed bullets have become so expensive here that I now use cast for everything, up to and including full power hunting loads - but that is another story.

[725]

I had a 336 waffle top (mid 1950's +/-). Shot OK but nothing to write home about. Did a strip detail cleaning one day which involved removing the forearm. To my surprise, I could unscrew the barrel by hand. The connection between the receiver and the barrel was that loose! I suggest a breakdown of the gun to inspect the tightness between the barrel / receiver. Unless it's proper, all other attempts to shrink those groups will fail.

[Bulliwig]

Checked it, Barrel seems to be as tight as it can be.

[Wilderness]

BW: You probably have this covered, and it may not be enough for the magnitude of your problem, but how about forend position on the bag? I have seen several recommendations for rifles with two piece stocks, which I have followed, to bring the bag as far back as possible on the forend, i.e. to the junction of forend and receiver. This is why I suggested putting the receiver on the bag when shooting the rifle stripped down. The alternative is to shoot the rifle with the hand between the bag and the forend.

I have also found the chronograph very useful for diagnosing vertical dispersion as I shoot groups. What caused that high/low shot? Was it loose screws, bench technique, bad shooting, butt slipped on shoulder? No, it was velocity. As an aside I have plotted POI against velocity, both of individual shots within groups, and between different groups with charge variation of the same powder. POI at 50 meters for my 336A .30-30 shifts approximately 2" for every 100 fps change in velocity. This is a very good reason for minimising velocity variation of .30-30s. Primers? Powder choice? Enough pressure for the powder?

By contrast my Ruger 77V .308 shoots all reasonable charge variations and bullet weights into much the same group at 100 m.

Wind can destroy an otherwise good group too, especially with .30-30 at 100 m. For makeshift wind flags, I use a strip of orange surveyor tape hanging from the target frame, then wait for the tape to hang straight down before firing the shot. I realise that it is the wind back at the shooter that has the most influence, but we can feel that wind on our faces and legs anyway.

[popper]

barely a diameter of .311 can you try powder coating to get the dia up to 311? I bought a box of lasercast 310 for my 30/30 - accuracy was in the toilet. They are hard cast BHN in 20 something. Melted them down. My GRT (German free equal to QuickLoad https://www.grtools.de/doku.php) gives 1800 fps, 28k psi for 24.5gr N130. My burn rate chart has 2 entries for n130, one is close to H335 that I've used a lot in 30/30. So water drop the bullets after PC (gets hardness and dia up where they belong) and it should be good. Unfortunately, sticky extraction at that low load isn't correct. 28k for 30/30 is LOW pressure. What is your seating depth? It is normally 0.5" ish but doesn't make a lot of difference. I believe a problem there.
On the other hand. you must expand the case neck ID to 0.309" and flare the mouth of the case to load cast. I just use a Lee FCD to remove the flare, no crimp. Last question, is your powder measurement correct?
There is a way to increase the dia of the mould but PC is easier, cheaper and WORKS.

[Wilderness]

BW: I am looking at the burn rate chart for your N130 powder. This seems fast for .30-30 full power, although it should be good for the #311041 bullets at about 1500 fps.

N140 is closer to Varget, 748, LVR etc that people have had success with, for jacketed bullets anyway. Cast bullets can run in the full power category also, but for them you may want to cut the velocity back. Reducing the load requires a powder that burns uniformly still at a lower pressure. I understand that Hodgdon claims H4895 can be reduced to 60% of maximum. I have no idea how the European powders perform at lower pressure.

In my limited experience, LVR at the lower velocity/pressure behaved badly, e.g. in my 336A, #311041 with 28 gns LVR gave 1950 fps, SD 57, and group (5 shots) at 50 m was 5.14"; 32 gns gave 2151 fps, SD 19, group 2.52". Another grain or two may have been better (see Larry Gibson's work on LVR in .30-30). This is just two groups, so no hard conclusions here. This was with peep rear and bead front sight.

By contrast, 30 gns 2208/Varget (single group again) with a different bullet gave 2133 fps, SD 7 and group 1.61", but I know I cannot take Varget below 28 gns without stringing the group.

This is off the theme of first getting the rifle to shoot with jacketed ammo, but it may be relevant if the ammo is suspect. Maybe the LVR ammo is telling the true story.

Larry Gibson's LVR work - see especially Post 45:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...LeveRevolution

[Bulliwig]

Thanks for all of your replies!
I‘ll try to answer all of your questions as good as possible.

1. I rested the rifle Right in Front of the Receiver as i shot with attached forend, the „naked“ rifle was rested with the reciever on the sandbag.

2. Wind should not be an issue here, the range is closed on all sides, only there is no roof

3. i never tried powdercoating and always thought of it as an unnecessary and messy extra step. If there is another chance i would rather stick with sizing and lubing the bullets.

4. seating depth: i can‘t Tell you the seating depth right now, i trimmed all brass to spec. and seated all bullets to the crimping groove.

5. in preparation for bullet seating i use the lyman m-die to Open up the case mouths and slightly bell it.

6. i read the whole thread of Larry gibsons excellent work with lvr powder in the 30-30, That’s the reason i want to try this powder.

7. 24.7 grains of n130 is the absolute max load for 170 grain bullets listed in the manual! I think the pressure is right there and the sticky lever seems normal to me at the max pressure. I‘m not sure if the SAAMI max is different to the CIP max pressure though.
Also vithavuori is (in)famous for imconstistency in their powder lots, so always use the manual of the year your powder was produced.

[Bulliwig]

In addition: bought another box of the hornady stuff yesterday, just to try it again and comfirm my results.

[Wilderness]

Thanks for all of your replies!
I‘ll try to answer all of your questions as good as possible.

1. I rested the rifle Right in Front of the Receiver as i shot with attached forend, the „naked“ rifle was rested with the reciever on the sandbag.

2. Wind should not be an issue here, the range is closed on all sides, only there is no roof

3. i never tried powdercoating and always thought of it as an unnecessary and messy extra step. If there is another chance i would rather stick with sizing and lubing the bullets.

4. seating depth: i can‘t Tell you the seating depth right now, i trimmed all brass to spec. and seated all bullets to the crimping groove.

5. in preparation for bullet seating i use the lyman m-die to Open up the case mouths and slightly bell it.

6. i read the whole thread of Larry gibsons excellent work with lvr powder in the 30-30, That’s the reason i want to try this powder.

7. 24.7 grains of n130 is the absolute max load for 170 grain bullets listed in the manual! I think the pressure is right there and the sticky lever seems normal to me at the max pressure. I‘m not sure if the SAAMI max is different to the CIP max pressure though.
Also vithavuori is (in)famous for imconstistency in their powder lots, so always use the manual of the year your powder was produced.

BW: Lucky you, with a closed in range!

I don't get excited about crimping, since the .30-30 seems to be able to hang on to cast bullets well enough without it. This is particularly so if the ammo is loaded a week or two before firing, when lubed bullets tend to bond to case necks - to test it, try to pull a bullet, or seat one deeper, a couple of weeks after loading the ammo.

If possible, I seat the (cast) bullets out to touch the rifling, but cannot do so with #311041 in the Marlin. Maximum COL that will still eject a loaded round is 2.570", and this is still too short for rifling contact. Your rifle might be different. Without crimping, seating depth is no longer set by crimping groove.

Because I don't crimp, I don't need to worry about trimming either, other than to square up the case mouths. My .30-30 chambers are 2.150" (1949 Marlin) and 2.120" (Savage 99). Once fired cases are about 2.025", so really need to be a lot longer, not shorter.

I have seldom experienced sticky lever and would be backing off if it was more than just an occasional happening.

Our 2208/Varget is also variable - 2200 fps achieved by 31 - 32 gns, depending on Lot # - not a problem if you have a chronograph.

What were the other factory brands you tried?

[Bulliwig]

I didn‘t continue shooting the max load after the sticky lever. I saw that i reached the threshold and backed down.
For factory rounds i tried:
- 160 gr ftx
- 150 gr Winchester x open point expanding
- 150 gr (maybe also 170 gr) partizan softpoint
- 170 gr federal softpoint
- 150 gr remington core lokt

Most of them i can‘t really remember, some of them were at least 20 years old.
-

[Wilderness]

BW: The following is where I think you are headed with this rifle.

The purpose of shooting without magazine or forend was to separate problems in this area from problems elsewhere. You have had some improvement, and you may have more with the magazine and forend properly fitted (if this was the initial problem), since these may add a degree of support to the barrel.

I have a Marlin 1893 in .32-40 with 26" half octagon barrel and full length magazine, Marbles tang sight and Lyman 17A front, and it shoots very well.

I have it set up so there is just a whisker of fore and aft movement in the forend, i.e. forend is not levering the barrel up by pushing against the receiver. Were it to do so, the pressure would be relieved as the barrel heats up and lengthens with firing, resulting in a change of POI.

The magazine tube likewise does not push against the receiver, but has just a whisker of clearance when the magazine cap screw is done up. Same argument about firing heat relieving the push pressure.

Finally, with the magazine cap screw done up, the magazine tube does not contact the barrel anywhere other than around the screw. Pay particular attention to the groove under the rear part of the barrel, which should provide clearance for the magazine tube, but may not. Check the magazine fit with the forend removed so you can see all the possible points of contact with the barrel. You might also check that the tube is not pushing against the forend cap tenon when the magazine cap screw is done up.

These ideas are not original - you will find them stated elsewhere if you go looking.

Others with experience of full magazine rifles may care to chime in.

[popper]

I sent Larry some PCd cast bullets for him to pressure test with LE powder. IIRC he tested in 308W & 30/30, got the pressure test results someplace on the computer. I use the LE powder in my marlin, excellent results ~30 gr. You need to get the cast dia up to at least 311!!! PC is cheap and would work or you can place a thin piece of Al or Cu tape on the mould face to increase dia. called Leementing a mould. The MG has very shallow grooves and an undersized bullet will not work. 30/30 GC RD bullet (similar to 041) & 30 gr LevrE powder, ~70 yds sitting, elbow for rest. Sized 311 with mazzola oil for lube. No fliers, just a kid was trying an AR10 with cast. Going up to 32gr only gains 100 fps but recoil increases a lot.

[JohnH]

Thanks for all of your replies!
I‘ll try to answer all of your questions as good as possible.

3. i never tried powdercoating and always thought of it as an unnecessary and messy extra step. If there is another chance i would rather stick with sizing and lubing the bullets.

I had a heck of a time getting 3 different 9mm to shoot without keyholing. A S&W Model 39, a Taurus 1911 9mm and a Hi Point 9mm Carbine. All three shoot jacketed just fine, but all three would keyhole using the Lee 356124 TC bullet and it seemed nothing I tried worked. I finally powder coated a batch, wat4r dropping them when they came out of the oven and the issue went away.

I don't care for powder coating, to me it's more work than conventional lubing and sizing and having tested it with every rifle and handgun I've got I didn't find any significant improvement over traditional lube. But in this case with the 9mm, it has proved invaluable. If you have a means of trying powder coating on your bullets/in your rifle I'd suggest giving it a try.

[missionary5155]

Powder coating adds diameter. Problem went away..... Try some .358 cast in your 9mm's....
The 30-30 Marlins have fat grooves, fat throats.... When getting a new to me barrel going I find the fattest cast that will chamber and start there.
Really this is my procedure with any Marlin. They figured out years ago.. happy hunters buy another Marlin. But if the rifle will not feed in the bushes the hunter will blame the rifle 95% of the time and all other hunters do listen. What hunter will say... "chamber was never cleaned since I bought it".