Paper Patching...my way.

[Don McDowell]

We've known for over a hundred years now, if you run a lead bullet to large it does what? It fins and cups the base. Paper patch may hold the fins in but it won't stop the base cupping . Looking at that fuzzy picture of those two bullets it's plenty obvious that the bullets are to large and expanding to hard into the sides of the barrels. The bases look to be rounded, and unless its a terrible optical illusion the groove engraving looks to be narrower at the leading edge of the bullet than at the base? How'ld that happen? As the bullet exited the bore the natural elasticity of the lead trying to do its thing making the "engraving" of the grooves larger as the bullet exited the barrel and distorted.
We also know from history's lessons the only time the folks that made the accuracy legends are made of ,used extra large patched bullets is when they were muzzleloaded and breech seated. The loading of the bullet thru the muzzle allowed the bullet to be engraved and sized to the barrel. (just as we do when we slug a barrel for measurement) Then when the powder kicked it in the butt the bullet was already engraved and sized so distortion was'nt a problem.
We also know that the "match" grade patched bullets were cast or swaged largely of what we consider very hard lead. Usually 14-1 or more , not unusual to find reference to 10-1 alloy for target bullets. Why? The tin keeps the elasticiy of the lead from deforming the bullet. Some folks are prone to call it nose slump these days.

[Lead pot]

Don.

I have never recovered a PP bullet that showed signs of fining that where patched over bore diameter short of some I cut a wad on purpose with a small crescent cut out to see what effect it had to the base of a bullet and in particular the bullet on the bottom row of that photo CM posted. That particular bullet I used a wax paper wad over the powder and a lube wad I cut a crescent out of and that let the lead flow into that damaged lube wad even as soft as the lube cookie is was enough for the lead to flow into it.
what I found patching a hard bullet .002 under bore diameter with a card over the powder and a lube wad with a card under the bullet base with a bullet cast at 1/11 tin/lead was a bullet with very lite land engraving on the bullet shank and several bullets that had very bad gas cuts. This I have never found on patched bullets patched over bore diameter.
I patch my bullets tight to bore and over bore when the bullet profile allows for me to do this because I get the best accuracy and the least nose setback.
I'm unable to post photo's and records because I lost most do to a hard drive crash. I had photo's of bullet bases and what alloys I used of hundreds of bullets that I recovered from the snow banks over 10 plus years. Bullet fining is very common with GG bullets.
A 3 gallon bucket full of recovered bullets is a lot of studying to see what is going on with alloys and bullet designs

Kurt

[303Guy]

I am having a cupping/finning problem with paper patched boolits. At least, I think it's a problem.

(Not too bad for expansion!)

This one was fired in a two-groove Lee Enfield (No.4 303 Brit). The bore is .304 and being a two-groove, that's what the boolit has to swage down to. It starts out at .318 at the base, patched. I had speculated that it was being caused by 'dragging' as the boolit gets swaged to bore diameter.

The paper grain imprinting onto the lead core is what I thought to be normal and a good sign as there is not patch slip and it shows that the patch is doing its job of keeping the lead core off the bore surface under lateral expansion due to a pressure being applied the the boolit base. If there was no paper grain imprint I would be concerned. I'm open to correction here - and anywhere else too, for that matter!

[Don McDowell]

Kurt the amount of study you've put into this bullet thing is an invaluable resource and it was a sad day when all that data was lost.
I guess alot of what a person does depends on the end result desired. If a person is happy shooting minute of 5 gallon bucket at 100 yds, then that's a differrent ball game than shooting for string measure at 40 rods, or high scores at the 1k line.
As most of us have found out the hard way, a load that makes bragging size groups at 100 yds, won't hit a schoolbus sized gong at 700.
But I still think the amount of expansion a lead bullet will give when hit in the butt with a given amount of pressure will determine what sort of deformation the bullet goes thru at the muzzle. If you have a bullet that's trying to swell to much into the lands and grooves is not going to shoot as accurately as one that's not trying to swell that much.
Anybody that's been on the firing line has heard "whirlybirds" going down range some of us have even sent those "whirlybirds"merrily on their way. Those things weren't the result of a perfectly fit bullet.

[45 2.1]

We've known for over a hundred years now, if you run a lead bullet to large it does what? It fins and cups the base. Paper patch may hold the fins in but it won't stop the base cupping.

As a point of interest, I found that wads stopped any cupping with large throat sized boolits with smokeless loads. They also reduced accuracy. The wad reduced expansion of bore diameter boolits also unless the load was up there somewhat. With BP this didn't happen as the BP bumped up boolits, either GG or patched, faster and more positively. Wad thickness and stiffness has an influence on this. A fat boolit that is pushed, rather then shoved seems to shoot a lot better. The old Scheutzen guys understood this well I believe.

Kurt the amount of study you've put into this bullet thing is an invaluable resource and it was a sad day when all that data was lost.
I guess alot of what a person does depends on the end result desired. If a person is happy shooting minute of 5 gallon bucket at 100 yds, then that's a differrent ball game than shooting for string measure at 40 rods, or high scores at the 1k line.
As most of us have found out the hard way, a load that makes bragging size groups at 100 yds, won't hit a schoolbus sized gong at 700.
But I still think the amount of expansion a lead bullet will give when hit in the butt with a given amount of pressure will determine what sort of deformation the bullet goes thru at the muzzle. If you have a bullet that's trying to swell to much into the lands and grooves is not going to shoot as accurately as one that's not trying to swell that much. Excellent statement........

Anybody that's been on the firing line has heard "whirlybirds" going down range some of us have even sent those "whirlybirds" merrily on their way. Those things weren't the result of a perfectly fit bullet.

Has anyone determined what is causing that. Is it part of a patch still attached or what. I haven't experienced this with GG smokeless at all.

[Don McDowell]

Whirlybirds are an affliction to both types of powder and poorly cast or deformed bullets. A patch blowout will sound pretty as it goes down range, lube warping can be a problem with grooved bullets and I'm beginning to wonder if the same principle might not come into play with patched bullets and wiping the bore with a bit much slickum between shots.?

[Lead pot]

Here I dug out some pictures I have on file on the desk top computer.
Wads have a big effect on the bullet base and also bullet upset.
Here is a .45 bullet that was patched to .454 with 1/30 alloy. It fully upset in the bore groove enough that you can see the end of the patch on the nose and the short wrapped patch with no base damage.


Here are some .44 bullets shot with different wad combinations and 1/20 alloy.
The left bullet#7 just had a wax paper wad and all bullets were patched .002 under bore diameter.
Second bullet from the left #3 had a .023 card.
Third from the left #1 had a .060 fiber wad.
And the one on the far right #41 had a .030 fiber and a .128 cork wad.
All 4 show no signs of fining.


These two are my hunting bullets, 685 grain hollow point bullets 1/20 alloy shot into a bag of mason sand. They show slight fining on these bullets. Sorry I don't have a photo showing the base.

If any of my PP bullets would develop fining it would be this one.
This is one of my rebated boat tail deep cup based bullet that I been working on for several years now and just developed a way to protect the fragile base.
This is a tight patched bullet and notice the ring on the bullet nose-- this shows that it pulled the case neck forward up into the lead. I'm surprised it did not separate the case..
These are just a few examples of bullets what alloy and wads will do to the integrity of the lead bullets.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Here's a .435 dual diameter bullet from the Old West Mould. It's base measures .435 and then the nose drops to about .430. It's hollow based. It left the 2.3 shoved by 80 grs of cartridge, a .030 fiber wad and a 1/8 inch felt. Paper was 20 lb southworth all cotton, base diameter as patched is .450. As you can see if you squint close enough the rifle engraves, altho lightly clear up on the nose. I cast these from some dead soft lead. This one was recovered from an elk , impact distance was at 204 yds.

[Lead pot]

I cant get your photo to come up Don.

[Don McDowell]

Kurt it shows up fine for me. I think I emailed you one of a dirt bank recovered one sometime ago. It's the same bullet as I gave you that batch of to try thru the 44's.

[montana_charlie]

But I still think the amount of expansion a lead bullet will give when hit in the butt with a given amount of pressure will determine what sort of deformation the bullet goes thru at the muzzle. If you have a bullet that's trying to swell to much into the lands and grooves is not going to shoot as accurately as one that's not trying to swell that much.

Your grasp of bullet deformation physics and bullet swelling physics is certainly unique, Mr. McDowell.

Deformation at the muzzle?
Trying to swell too much?
I can't even pretend to understand what you just said.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Somehow Maxwell that doesn't really surprise me.

[montana_charlie]

Well, when you were giving those explanations, they were in reply to something you and Kurt were talking about.
So, I'll just wait for Kurt to explain it...if he can.
CM

[Don McDowell]

Okydoky simple synopsis.
If you want to shoot "groove" diameter patched,and do so with repeatable accuracy, you need to stay with a .450 bullet. That combo most likely won't shoot dirty. Unless you go with a tapered bullet, or dual diameter with a short .450 base.
To shoot dirty you'll need to go with a .440-.444 bullet patched no larger than .450, and probably use a lubed wad or grease cooky.

[montana_charlie]

So far, 'shooting dirty' is a side-issue in this thread...spoken of, but not explored.
But, even if it was a subject worth spending time on, I don't know what 'shooting dirty' has to do with the concept of a patch being too tight.

That 'too tight' and 'hampered expansion' thing is the subject that I and Rick Mulhern are failing to understand your theories on.

Yes by the bullet being to large the patch is keeping it from fully expanding to the bore, that's why the grain is imprinted in the bullet. By it being patched that tight , it's liable to be doing all sorts of contortions when it comes out the muzzle.

Don

Maybe I'm just stupid but I'm not quite following this posting! Can you maybe put it in plainer context so my feeble mind can understand?

Thanks!

You explained to Rick that 'we have known for a hundred years...too big bullets get cups and fins on the base'.

Kurt said 'not in my experience'.

You replied (to Kurt) with 'the amount of expansion will determine the deformation at the muzzle'...(and with) 'a bullet that's trying to swell too much will be less accurate'.

If you can explain any of that for (the three of) us it will be something worth keeping.
If you can connect any of it with 'shooting dirty', that should prove interesting, too.

However, if you're saying that excessively undersized bullets don't shoot well because they need to swell too much, everybody would agree with you.
But, that would be exactly opposite to the practice of patching to groove...which uses the biggest bullet possible and, like all patched bullets, does best with 'tight patches'.


There is one aspect of patching to bore diameter which may be the kernel of what you have been getting at.
But, I'll wait for your reply to see if that's what you mean...before I agree with you.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Oh golly gee whiz Mr. Maxwell , shucks tell us all.......

[RMulhern]

Concerning the shooting of all-lead cast PP bullets.....here's something that I THINK I know! When the powder ignites...all hell breaks loose inside the barrel, the **** end of the bullet gets hit in a nanosecond with tons of pressure...and the nose is the first thing that moves....REARWARD! At the same time the nose is moving slightly rearward the exterior of the bullet is being blown outward against the interior of the barrel and the nose of the projectile has several tons of torque applied to it attempting to twist it out of it's structural integrity. Shortly after being 'pressure cooked'....the projectile is again exposed to being hammered when it gets to within about 6" of exiting the muzzle because it's being squeezed down by the choke within those last 6" prior to exiting the muzzle!

When you stop to think about it.....it's a damn good thing lead does have elasticity to a degree because without it we wouldn't be able to hit a frickin barn! And all the more reason for being able to select an alloy that best withstands all the labors that a cast bullet is subjected to and all the more reason for being able to cast good bullets!

[Don McDowell]

Yup and when you're shooting a patched bullet that the slug is already over bore diameter, you got more distortion going on.

[montana_charlie]

There is one aspect of patching to bore diameter which may be the kernel of what you have been getting at.
But, I'll wait for your reply to see if that's what you mean...before I agree with you.

Yup and when you're shooting a patched bullet that the slug is already over bore diameter, you got more distortion going on.

Nope. Sorry...that wasn't it.


Don,
We all have our favorite 'experts' that we rely on when something outside our own experience needs to be figured out.

You and I both put a lot of faith in the experience of Rick Mulhern and Kenny W., but I also like to know what Brent Danielson and Dan Theodore think.

Back when I was just starting to consider paper patching, I read this advice from Dan to Ken Einig, a guy who was trying to get his Hiwall working with PP.

"Using too small of an as cast PP bullet diameter has been shown, by various marksmen, to not deliver the accuracy that a larger diameter bullet can. Here's a truism that came to me years ago: The more a bullet has to bump-up, the more the base will be distorted.

So, to conclude, if I were you and interested in PP'ing I'd trim 45-100 Starline brass to as long as possible and still chamber it, fire-form it, trim-to-length at what ever you chamber length is and shoot at least a 0.4500" diameter bullet patched to near barrel-groove diameter. I've got a Paul Jones PP mold that casts a 0.4540" diameter bullet. It has shot very well in standard, non-pp, chambers."

So, you see Don, because mine IS a "non-PP chamber", I latched onto that diameter number and used it as a reference point for deciding what I would start with.
Silly me...I didn't take his advice as given. I over-figured the requirements I would encounter.
So, I started out looking to patch a .450" bullet. I soon worked up to .452" and got the good results I have been bragging about.
Now, after all of the unnecessary fooling around, I am finally up to the .454" bullet that Dan originally recommended.

You 'complimented me' a few posts back on finally getting down to a smaller bullet.
I don't know what you have been reading, but I said just the opposite. I am now up to the biggest one I've tried.

After reading your take on what happens to a bullet inside the barrel, it's obvious you would not put any cedibility in Dan's information. But I have a feeling his data has undergone at least as much testing as yours.

Thanks for the information on lubed felt wads, way back in the early part of this thread.
When I get around to trying to 'shoot dirty', I will give them a try.

CM

[Don McDowell]

Just keep on winnin them national championships CM.