Paper Patching...my way.

[montana_charlie]

Well, I have read so many paper patching discussions over the last four months I wonder if anything could be said about the subject that I haven't seen at least twice. If there is, I am probably too 'full' to absorb it.

Assembling 'bits and pieces' of theory, experience, and speculation from four different forums (and having done some loading bench experimenting with donated bullets) I am ready to make up some loads to try.
And...this will be a black powder project.

I even appreciate comments from those who I 'argued with', as their input provided contrast for evaluating all the rest of the information.

I have decided to use the Theodore Money-nosed PP bullet, but in .450" naked diameter (samples generously donated by Arnie Moos), and the 9 lb. onionskin I found on eBay. Arnie's bullets are very 'soft', and I imagine I will eventually switch to 16-1 alloy to prevent slumping of that narrow Money nose.

So, as I progress toward patching my first bullets, they will be patched-to-groove (almost), and, according to last night's calculations, seated in the case .465" to get leade/nose contact.
(This should mean that the leade does not have to be scrupulously cleaned by shot-to-shot wiping...as required for shallowly seated patched-to-bore bullets.)

I made up a test round with a patched diameter of .455" thumb-seated in a fireformed case, over 1.5 grains of Red Dot, and lit by a magnum primer. It threw the bullet halfway up the bore, and I pounded it back out into the chamber. Of course I messed up the nose.
But the patched area was unmodified...and showed good results in all of the factors I was looking at. Rifling was clearly evident in the paper and the lead, and the patch passed through the leade with no folding, tearing, peeling, scuffing, or other problems. As I peeled the patch from the bullet, it came away in small flakey segments (shreds) delineated by the rifling cuts.

I knew immediately that the patch/bullet sealed the bore well because...when I dropped the breech block...the empty case went past me like a scalded dog.

They say a smokeless shooter must patch to groove because his powder won't bump-up a bullet. And, those who use smokeless do claim good results with patched to groove bullets.
A shooter using black can patch to bore because his powder is able to bump the bullet...but he doesn't have to.

I'm following the 'doesn't have to' part of that rule of thumb...for starters...because groove diameter seems to be more correct for use in my chamber dimensions.

This thread may get some age on it before I ever have a chance to post some shooting results. Judging by today's weather, it may not happen until August!
But, I will resurrect it whenever I have something to add...and you guys can fill pages with information, too.
Just remember the thread IS aimed at 'black powder'...so don't feel ignored if I (or others) don't get worked up over new 'smokeless' information.

CM

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Charlie,

For what its worth, I thnk if your chamber is on the larger side then your method makes the most sense, and if your rifle has leade ahead of that chamber. Good luck. I look forward to hearing your results.

It is going to be in the 40's here today i need to burn up some old ammo to get ready for Phoenix in March.

The lunger
Kenny Wasserburger

[montana_charlie]

It is going to be in the 40's here today i need to burn up some old ammo to get ready for Phoenix in March.

I have some 'old ammo' I would like to burn up, too, but not to get ready for anything special. Our temperature may reach the 40's, but it will be on the 'Down Under' side of zero.

Thanks for the encouragement on the patching...
CM

[JeffinNZ]

Charlie, I have been following the threads and I am not sure you argued as much as had a good old healthy robust discussion.

[montana_charlie]

Maybe you're right, Jeff. Could have been my imagination saying that there were some tight jaws around.

I was patching some bullets last night to start figuring out patch dimensions. I still need to adjust that, but I stumbled on a wrapping method that seems like the bee's knees.

I have a rotary-type paper cutter for making strips, and after I had a few patches shaped I just used it as a flat surface to roll them.

Not wanting to expose the surface to water, I laid a stiff plastic bag down and anchored it with a refrigerator magnet. This is a temporary solution. I will build a bullet board, but it will also be covered with a slick, waterproof surface.

The method went this way...
I would thoroughly soak a patch in water, and lightly strip off the excess by stroking gently with my fingers.

Then I would lay the patch flat, and plaster it down tight by stroking it (more about the stroking later). The stroking would cause a certain amount of stretch, which held it's dimension because the patch was 'glued down' so tightly.

Then I could lift the pointy end onto the bullet at the ogive, and simply roll it up. As I said, the paper already had the 'stretch' in it, so I didn't have to tug against it while rolling.
Having been cut across the grain, the paper (when wet) actually 'wants' to curl around something. The very wet paper 'sucked onto' the bullet like it was a magnet...and was very 'stable' while crimping and folding the base overlap.

This shot shows how nice the patch goes on...and shows that 'test bullet' I mentioned in the opening post.


Now, about that 'stretching'...
Stroking very wet (fragile) paper with a finger can easily tear it in two. A small roller would (perhaps) do the job more reliably.
I'm talking about a hard rubber roller, something like what a printer would use to ink a plate of linotype text...but not as big. Something an inch (or so) wide, and an inch in diameter...with a handle on it like a paint roller.
It needs to be hard...like the platen on a typewriter.

Anybody ever seen something on that order...?
CM

Hmmm...wallpaper seam roller...?

[357maximum]

Charlie

I have an older set of windowscreen tools...it has a hard delrin type plastic roller like you described. About 1 inch wide and about 1.25 in in diameter if memory serves. Might give you a direction to look in.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks, 'max'.
I have Googled a bit with your suggestion in mind, but don't see a lot of rollers that are wide and flat. Most are those narrow 'spline rollers' with the groove in the edge.
I did find one like yours...but at $35 plus s/h, I think I can build something.

Seems like I have a piece of Delrin out in the shop that's about 1.25 inches in diameter.
Who knows? There might be a caster out there for a roll-around chair...somewhere.
CM

[gtim88]

Thick wall pvc pipe, roll by hand or make a couple bushings fabricate a handle. if it works, would be cheap enough.
Tim

[Nrut]

Thick wall pvc pipe, roll by hand or make a couple bushings fabricate a handle. if it works, would be cheap enough.
Tim

Or buy a short rod of delrin, drill a hole length wise and make your own handle out of some small metal rod...I bought some delrin rod once from a plastics shop so it's out there...
BTW Charlie thanks for the tip on stretching the paper..

[Buckshot]

............Various types of plastic, or synthetic's if you prefer are available and pretty inexpensive. They can be bought in many diameters if cylinders are what you're looking for. I just bought a couple feet of HDPE 1" in diameter for well less then $5. However while it was smooth it had a very shallow wide 'swale' running in a slow spiral around the rod. Possibly some artifact of it's extrusion?

I don't know if all HDPE of other diameters have this effect or not. Regardless, what I needed for the project was an OD of less then an inch and it machined to a very fine smooth finish. I'm not used to the material I machine coming off in continuous smooth, weightless but tenacious streamers

................Buckshot

[John Boy]

Stroking very wet (fragile) paper with a finger can easily tear it in two. A small roller would (perhaps) do the job more reliably.

Charlie - what works for me is:
A scrap piece of Corian ... lay the paper (thin or thick) - lay the bullet on the paper and then wrap by rolling the bullet forward with the palm of your hand.

No tears - wraps tight including thin lens cleaning paper

[leftiye]

Buckshot, Maybe, if a smaller cylinder was okay, turn it down a little. The machine marks should even be beneficial.

John boy, I like your idea of rolling with the side of your palm, it should produce nice tight roll if you can do it without causing other problems to surace. One could even come up with something flat to roll with (like one of those sanding plates with the foam rubber on them maybe).

[runfiverun]

seems like a lube pad would make a good paper pad, and would soak up a bit of water without
letting the paper slip.

[docone31]

I use a cigarette roller for my .30s, and .303.
My thoughts would be,
Why could it not be possible to make a scaled up version for the larger paper patching folks here. The pad and roller you describe is simplified in my cigarette roller.
With that device, I soak my patch, lay it wet on the apron, set the casting onto the patch, still wet, close the device and roll away.
The patch rolls on slightly damp, tight as all get out, smooth and any wrinkles that might have been on the roll are dead flat.
I can just barely get a .357 casting into the machine. A .45, forget about it. Even a simple roller machine could have the opening roller groove opened up without interfering with the machine.
I sure found it simple.

[scrapcan]

what about the roller used for putting on formica or cabinet facing? They should be about 1 to 2 inches wide and about aht big around. you might look at rockler or lee valey for laminate glue roller?

just a thought.

[littlejack]

How about buying a rubber sanding drum of your favorite size and removing the shaft. Make yourself a wooden or metal handle for it to roll on. Shape it like a roller handle or yoke type sling shot frame. Drill the hole same size in the handle as is in the rubber drum. Run a bolt through the handle and drum and wa-la.
One could buy one of the miniature paint roller handles and mount the drum on it.
Jack

[Lead pot]

Just use your fingers like I do, it works great wet or dry.

LP

[runfiverun]

when i roll them by hand i end up doing it left handed and never get any paper stretch.
i seem to get quite a few loose patches and no consistency in accuracy.

[pdawg_shooter]

I cut some patches a tad short once and couldnt get enough stretch with my fingers. My patching board is hard rubber, after stretching wit my finger I use a rubber "J" roller from the lumber yard. I bought the roller for hanging FRP board in the bathroom and it works fine.

[montana_charlie]

I cut some patches a tad short once and couldnt get enough stretch with my fingers.
I use a rubber "J" roller from the lumber yard ... and it works fine.

Thanks for that input, pdawg.
Up to this moment, it was mere speculation on my part that a roller would stretch patches. Your confirmation is much appreciated.
CM