Question on Cast Slugs

[Vettepilot]

Well, let's be clear on a couple of things:

One, there are three levels of seating these wads:

1. Seated to "one click". This is easy to do by hand, and is incorrect. If seated this way, they will separate in flight and is the problem Jeff, (Taofledermous) had initially.

2. Seated to "two clicks" of the wad. This is seeming like it is the correct manner, and what most people are doing. Seating to two "clicks" requires a good amount of force, and if done without wad support can slightly crush the cushion zone of the wad. Reloaders Network sells a system to support the wad while seating that prevents this damage. Seating the wad to this level leaves only that final step of the wad showing, as seen in the picture in post #34. Wads seated to this depth will stay with the slug in flight, as it is supposed to do.

3. Seating fully, past the "two click" stage, jamming that final "step" up into the slug. This requires a lot of force, and is how the slugs pictured in post #32 have the wad seated. This results in cracks in the slug skirt.

As regards the setback of the slug on firing forcing that final step on the wad to be seated--> maybe yes, maybe no. If the shell, chamber, and bore support the slug enough, maybe that step won't be forced into the slug. However, if it does get jammed up in there upon firing, that skirt is going to crack, which can't be good for accuracy. As I stated before, that step on the wad is nearly .010" larger than the i.d. of the slug, and when jammed up into the slug, something has to give. That's why the cracks you see in my photos, and my questions regarding all this.

I believe this is all a factor only with the pent roof "Italian" style slugs, as the Paradox and other Russian slugs are much, much beefier in the skirt area.

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Add:

I just happened to think: there's more evidence that firing a shell will not seat the wad. Many have proved that if you don't seat the wad fully to the "two click" stage, the wad and slug will separate in flight. If you seat to the "two click" stage, they don't; they properly stay together.

So, by inference, we can gather that shooting will not seat the wad!

Vettepilot

[longbow]

You'd think that that kick in the butt would seat the wad but what I think is forgotten is that there is always gas leakage and especially right at ignition while the wad is still in the hull and passing through the forcing cone to the bore. That gas even blows by plastic gas seals somewhat in the bore. So that means any cavities may pressurized while the slug/wad is still in the bore and contained but as soon as the slug/wad leave the muzzle there is no external pressure so any internal pressure in that hollow base cavity could pop an improperly seated wad out.

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

Yes, you really would think that 11,000 psi shot would seat the wad! But apparently not. Strange but true.

So with that being rather a given now, it seems that if you don't force seat that step up into the wad, on firing it won't go up in there either. Instead, at the most, that wad step will bear against the slug i.d. This might not be a bad thing, as it would help keep the wad square and centered on the slug.

FotuneCookie45LC, whom is pretty knowledgeable, is adamant that you don't seat that step up into the slug.

However, some here have said to seat it all the way, and that's what Svarog told me if we understood each other properly.

Hence, my confusion!!

Interestingly, there is now a newer version of the Azot wad from Russia. I can't tell for sure, but it looks like that step is no longer there... I have some coming, but who knows when they'll arrive. (Straight from Russia; not Reloaders.)

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

So, here's the only picture I can find of the new style Azot wad coming from Russia. It's hard to tell from this pic, but it looks like that "step" on the wad that I've been fretting about is definitely a smaller diameter on this new version of the wad, if it's actually there at all. (Could be just wishful thinking too...)

Guess we'll know for sure when my shipment of them comes in...

The second pic shows the original version of the wad, with that dam step highlighted in red.

Edit: It does look like the gas seal cup on this version is not as substantial as the one on the original... hope it works well.

Vettepilot

[Cap'n Morgan]

Yes, you really would think that 11,000 psi shot would seat the wad! But apparently not. Strange but true.

The wad is probably resting on the top of the slug cavity. It will seat fully under pressure, but the springback will push it back again once out of the barrel. As long as the wad stays on, every thing is honky dory.

The problem with compressible wads like this one is, while it works great with shot loads, the design with a combined seal & wad doesn't lend itself well to slugs (at least with smooth bores) as the wad isn't stiff enough, and often will take a permanent bend after firing. A better design would be some kind of open bottom wad with a lengthwise "honeycomb" pattern, and a separate x12x seal.

[longbow]

I am very much in agreement Cap'n though I have to say that in my limited experience so far that the Gualandi style cushion these wads use does seem to return quite consistently.. much more than many wads.

I do have to wonder why they don't use a solid wad like AQ slugs though. That seems to me to be the best plastic wad type for attached wad slugs... that and Brenneke wads.

Your injection moulded Brenneke style wads also work well.

My opinion anyway.

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

Well, the wad does work, as accuracy is universally reported as excellent. That would not be the case if the wad were "tweaking" in any fashion.

I have to respectfully disagree on that step popping into the slug, then popping back out. It takes a lot of force to make that step go up in there, and when it does, two things happen. The slug cracks, every time, and it does not pop back out.

I like my theory better. That the step pushes up, touching the i.d. of the slug. This would do two things. Make the wad dead centered on the slug, and dead nuts flat too, all in a firm manner due to the fit, and the durable nature of that step.

Just my thoughts. And I guess that's all one has, unless we can convince a flea to ride the slug, have a look, and report back!

Vettepilot

[longbow]

Do you know what would be nice? Slo-mo video of the unit leaving the muzzle. That would reveal a great deal I think.

I agree that those wads seem to perform quite well but I do have to wonder why not use solid plastic like AQ or a wad system like the old Brenneke classic that gives excellent accuracy with a solid hard felt and washer attached wad.

I also agree that it is unlikely that step pushes inside for just the reasons you mention. In a rifled gun there is more barrel drag with slug engraving so the cushion may collapse more but the slugs are basically a close rattle fit in smoothbore so at acceleration there is only the weight of the slug resisting acceleration. The slug does get a pretty good boot in the butt but the recovered slugs I have do not show any sign of that step swaging into the slug skirt so it likely bottoms then pushes... just like when I try to seat the wad deeper, its a no go!

I just wonder why create a possible issue with a cushion leg when these are custom wads anyway. Different with the screw on type using a standard brush wad but the Azot wads are a specialty item, they can be made in any configuration as long as they mate with the post and cavity of the slug.

Anyway, they do work so a bit of a moot point. I'm just curious and get absorbed in details.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Vettepilot:C3,4,5,6,7 or 8? The problem you've got is with your specific slugs which aren't very thick at the base.

With the Svarog Paradox Slugs and many others in their line, the base of the slug is fairly heavy, and mine are easily an 1/8" thick and they aren't going to break shoving a plastic wad into them.

Yours appear to be the Italian designed "Fire Hydrant" design (Svarog)which has a thinner skirt.

My mould came with 3 different mould base pins. One had a hollow spigot in it that was to be used for the Wads we are talking about. I stopped using that one almost immediately as it was nearly impossible to get a perfectly filled out slug, and also the wads didn't seat very well.

The next one had a radiused/tapered cavity and filled out perfectly and had a small hole in the center of the heads so you could screw a BW12 wad onto it. I drilled these out on the lathe so the holes were concentric. I also pilot drilled the wads so they were concentric as well. This version worked the best and the wads were commonly available at BPI.

The last one had a Short tapered rear cavity and weighed 620gr. I made a few but never loaded them.

All these slugs dropped at .727OD with Wheel Weights,(same mould different cavity pins) and PC'ing them brings them right up to Rifled Bore Dia.

From the right, these slugs weigh 578, 667 and 620 gr. most of the ones I have in storage are the 667 version with the screw on wad. They should perform the best.

I sold the mould as I didn't need it any more and had enough already made to outlast me.

Randy

[Vettepilot]

Yeah, me too, seriously interested/involved/mesmerized by the details.

I think the cushion helps with recoil, and more importantly, pressures. A lot of the guys playing with "shorty shells" run into pressure when leaving out the cushion column. Kind of silly those "shorty shells", but that's just my opinion...

The cushion allows some controlled combustion chamber expansion before the payload has to start moving and eases pressure spikes, but can cause accuracy problems with some slugs. Not so much with these Russian slugs, but definitely can be problematic with, for example, the Lee slugs. Sometimes in these cases going with a waxed cushion wad instead of plastic can help there. But then you still need a shot cup for a sabot with the Lee and Lyman slugs, which can cause their own problems if not fit right, and sometimes even then.

It's somewhat surprizing that the commercial slug makers were able to keep a monopoly on their well performing, (and expensive!), slugs. I wonder why nobody here in the states ever copied them, and made the components available for sale? Well, at least the Russians have created an accurate system we can use and we can now make our own accurate slug loads, but it could be cheaper yet! Those Russian wads are not very cheap, but it's still far cheaper than buying commercial slugs.

Vettepilot

[Vettepilot]

Vettepilot:C3,4,5,6,7 or 8? The problem you've got is with your specific slugs which aren't very thick at the base.

With the Svarog Paradox Slugs and many others in their line, the base of the slug is fairly heavy, and mine are easily an 1/8" thick and they aren't going to break shoving a plastic wad into them.

Yours appear to be the Italian designed "Fire Hydrant" design (Svarog)which has a thinner skirt.

My mould came with 3 different mould base pins. One had a hollow spigot in it that was to be used for the Wads we are talking about. I stopped using that one almost immediately as it was nearly impossible to get a perfectly filled out slug, and also the wads didn't seat very well.

The next one had a radiused/tapered cavity and filled out perfectly and had a small hole in the center of the heads so you could screw a BW12 wad onto it. I drilled these out on the lathe so the holes were concentric. I also pilot drilled the wads so they were concentric as well. This version worked the best and the wads were commonly available at BPI.

The last one had a Short tapered rear cavity and weighed 620gr. I made a few but never loaded them.

All these slugs dropped at .727OD with Wheel Weights,(same mould different cavity pins) and PC'ing them brings them right up to Rifled Bore Dia.

From the right, these slugs weigh 578, 667 and 620 gr. most of the ones I have in storage are the 667 version with the screw on wad. They should perform the best.

I sold the mould as I didn't need it any more and had enough already made to outlast me.

Randy

C4!!! Manual trans. And hopefully soon it's gonna be as rare as a unicorn!! 'Cause it's getting a 600 horse big block. Engine is built, just need a couple more odds and ends, and the time to shoe-horn it in there...

Yeah, I don't know why I'm so enamored of that pent roof, Italian style Russian slug, but I am. Could be because I'm a pilot, and the peaked roof seems more aerodynamic than a flat nose!

The Russian slugs do cast a hair undersize, and powder coating them is probably a good idea. My understanding is that European 12 gauge shotgun bores run more towards .725", and that's why. I might lap mine out at some point. (Or maybe not...)

I have a couple other Russian slug molds, and a bunch of different pins too. I do like that you can use commonly available wads with those, and that's a good thing, both for availability and price! I just paid 33 cents each for the batch of Russian wads I'm waiting on--> straight from Russia! Reloaders Network will likely be selling them for 50+ cents each or more if/when they ever get them.

Anyway, it's all good fun. I love shooting slugs. My daughter and I also have great fun wreaking havoc with wax slugs. Too cool those!!

Your slugs look great!

Vettepilot

[Petander]

Here's what happens to my slugs when fired. These were recovered from snow last spring.

The one on the left shows how "deep" I can get them seated. It just won't go deeper without completely messing up the wad.

But these shoot pretty good from a cylinder Benelli M3. I don't know why coating fails like that, well, it's Zombie Green...

Anyway, these do get seated hard and deep when fired. My load is not a mild one...

[W.R.Buchanan]

What choke does your gun have? It looks like a Modified? Measure the fired slugs? See what they are now.

Those are pretty big slugs to jam thru a choke. I had the same mould and mine dropped at .727 which with PC is about perfect for a rifled barrel or cylinder bore barrel.

Apparently my assertion that the wads would be fully seated was correct, at least in Finland!

Randy

[Vettepilot]

Oooh, yeah. Those slugs surely show signs of a rough trip down the barrel!! They appear to have been swaged big time, and of course, that's why the powder coating got wiped off. I've never seen that happen before. Check your barrel bore.

No wonder the wad seated fully!

Vettepilot

[Petander]

What choke does your gun have? It looks like a Modified?

Randy

Cylinder.

[longbow]

I wonder if the cavity is deeper in those slugs because my loads weren't light either but certainly no seating like that!

I also notice something in you pic I found with the Gualandi DGS slugs, the flat tab on the cushion has distorted the skirt a bit indicating that it slammed home hard! Both the middle and right hand slugs in the pic appear to have a slightly bent skirt right above that tab. The DGS slugs I shot should the same but larger deformity after firing.

The Paradox slugs I shot were soft lead and I am assuming your slugs are too? The DGS slugs were quite hard lead but still distorted quite a bit at the skirt.

Your slugs have also compressed quite a bit which is obvious due to much wider driving bands and narrower grooves. In fact that seems like a lot of compression to me!

Longbow

[Vettepilot]

Something's wrong here. All of us looking have noticed it. I think you should measure your bore.

Vettepilot

[longbow]

Could be a tight bored European shotgun?

Apparently according to Eropean regs a 12 ga. can be as small as 18.2mm (0.717").

Longbow

[longbow]

Hah! I should have reread... yes, Benelli so it could have a tighter bore than typical North American shotguns.

The other side of that coin is that it could be as large as 18.9mm (0.744").

So... either the slug is being swaged down by a tight bore or it is obturating bunches!

Longbow