BSJRx3 hopeless hornet

[felix]

John, you have an ignition problem with the Hornet. It seems the powder towards the boolit is being blown down the barrel. Need primer with less force, or a hotter one, would be my next try. Bullshop is shooting in much colder ambients? ... felix

[w30wcf]

Felix,

A very good idea. Actually, I did try both small pistol and small rifle primers and to your point, the small pistol primers gave the highest velocity. Cartridges primed with the small rifle primers were about 200 f.p.s.(!) slower.

Temperatures at the two different times I tried the Trail Boss loads in the Hornet were in the 60F range.

With the 3.3/231/ 47 gr.cast, the small pistol primer and small rifle primer gave pretty much the same velocity.

With 4.5/ AA7 (1,570 f.p.s.) the small rifle primer gave increased velocities of 30 f.p.s....accuracy was about the same with either. Same with 5.2 / Sharpshooter, an early .22 W.C.F. smokeless powder / load.

As you alluded to, in some situations, especially with small cases, primer type can make a significant difference. I found that out initially when testing .22 W.C.F. black powder loads. The small pistol primers gave velocities as much as 300 f.p.s. faster than small rifle primers.

w30wcf

[Bullshop]

w30wcf
That is kinda weard that the lower charge gave the highest velocity with Trail Boss. I have never tried 231 but will. I think I have seen one of those tall fat Win cans somewhere on my shelf with a 231 on it. I have never used that powder for anything. I aquire this stuff at gun shows. Lot of folks come here buy a bunch of stuff then after a winter deceide its not for them and move on. They cant haul the stuff through Canada so it gets sold cheap on the wind down at gun shows.
I tried Trail Boss in the Cooper but am just reinventing the 22 rf. One of my favorite loads in the Cooper is 3.3gn IMR 800X with the 45gn NEI. 800 X is a very bulky disk type powder and the 3.3gn fills the case to the base of the boolit. Sighted 1" high at 40 yards puts me dead on at 100. Shot alot of rabbits with that load last year and out to 100 or a bit more it is instant death. Streach the range a bit and it seems to lose the desicive smack it shows at the closer ranges. At the streached ranges JR with his 223 and 18.9gn H 4895 and the 55gn NEI still had the effect, smack/dead no crawlers.
Would like to hear of your further testing.
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

Bullshop, you can't haul smokeless across Canada? I've taken in lots of BP, with no problems. Never asked about smokeless.

[Bullshop]

Bullshop, you can't haul smokeless across Canada? I've taken in lots of BP, with no problems. Never asked about smokeless.

Waksupi
Yes you can haul up to 17 lbs smokless powder and 5000 primers but I dont preach that gospel when trying to buy cheap powder. No deception on my part just a willingness to buy when no one else is.
I was under the impression though that black powder was a no no.
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

Never had a problem taking it in, or bringingit back out. The Canadian shooters have cases drop shipped to people in the states, and take it back across the border.

[cbrick]

w30wcf ,

You tried Trail Boss or 231 in the 30-30. What was the bullet weight, velocity and charge? Interesting.

Rick

[w30wcf]

cbrick,

W231-
has worked very well for me in reduced loads for the .30-30. 5.5 grs. under a 120-125 gr. cast bullet and 6.5 grs. under a 150-155 gr. cast bullet give velocities in the 1,200 f.p.s. range with very good accuracy.

Trail Boss-
In the .30-30, IMR / Hodgdon recommends 9.0 grs. with a 160 cast bullet ... their data showing 1,195 f.p.s. @ 29,100 CUP.

I tried this load under a 158 gr. cast bullet and 5 Rounds grouped into 1" @ 50 yards. Recorded velocity was 1,253 f.p.s. ina 20" barrel. 9.0 grs. TB fills about 90% of the case capacity.

Since I shoot a fair amount of .30-30 "Short Range" loads, I also wanted to give TB a try in that application. I started with 5.5 grs. then went to 6.0 grs. to get into the 1,100 to 1,200 f.p.s. range. 6.0 grs. fills about 60% of the case.

I compared positioning the powder to the back of the case vs. feeding from the magazine. Other favorite "Short Range" powders 231, 4756, Unique, Universal will group into two different spots in that test, usually about 1 1/2" - 2" apart. Not so with Trail Boss. It pushed the 125 gr cast bullets into the same group wether the powder was positioned to the back of the case or not.

I decided to try 2 different pistol primers with the 6.0 gr. load. I did use both the WLP and CCI 200 large rifle primer and there was only 1 f.p.s. difference between them. Accuracy was about the same with both.

125 gr. cast bullet w.w.+2% tin
6.0 TB / WLP 1,139 f.p.s. 5 shot 3/4" group @ 50 yards
6.0 TB / 155 1,133 f.p.s. 10 shot 1 1/4" group @ 50 yards

w30wcf

[cbrick]

w30wcf,

Thanks, that's just the starting info I was looking for. Just what is needed for a fun day murdering unsuspecting and innocent soda cans and rocks.

Rick

[HORNET]

w30wcf,
in reply #22, you said that primer type can make a difference. I find that with the .22 Hornet, primer brand and designation can make a big difference. I did some testing while it was still warm out with 11 different primer batches that I had sitting around using the same load ( 7.5 gr. WW680 & lyman 225415) and found that the loads using Rem 7-1/2 and Win WSP primers grouped much better than Rem 6-1/6, Win 6-1/2 ( new and old rounded ones), Fed 200, Rem 1-1/2 & 5-1/2, and the others that I had ( can't remember them all offhand) . This has carried through on loads using IMR4227 as well, although the chargeneeds bumped up a couple ogf tenths with the WSP.
There used to be a couple of others shooting Hornets at the local range ( they gave up- lightweights!!) that swore by Fed 205m's based on their testing with V V powders and Lil' Gun. I intend to pursue this further, maybe get some 205M's and 100M's , when it gets warm enought to shoot again.

[felix]

Federal primers tend to have the hottest flame with the least amount of force when compared to other brands. These tests took place with what was available from the 1995 primer lots. Also, and this from my personal experience, the Federals have the softest metal which is not ideal for ballstothewall loads. ... felix

[w30wcf]

Bullshop,
We had some unseasonally mild weather last Thursday (55F), so I played hookey for a few hours from work and took my Hornet + a few more TB filled cartridges to the range. I am happy to report that the results were better this time around but there is still some further load development that needs to be done.

In checking my loading notes, the cast bullets (225438) I had used in the first test were some that were given to me my by a friend. In checking them more closely, I found that they were .003" out of round (.222" to .225"). (They still shoot a- ok with 3.3/231 though.)

So for this outing, I used some NEI 45 gr. (47grs. in w.w. + 2% tin) "match grade" .225" diameter bullets. One thing I did find out with TB is that a deeper seated bullet gave more consistant velocities.....well at least for 4 rounds.

In the past, I have found that my '43 WInchester shoots best with cartridges having an o.a.l. of 1.75".

Velocties recorded at the 1.75 o.a.l. (CCI 500 primer) were as follows:
3.5 / TB - 1310, 1217, 1453, 1364, 1439 average 1,357 f.p.s.
4.0 / TB - 1427, 1433, 1293, 1078, 1320 average 1,320 f.p.s.
Accuracy wasn't too bad this time with all rounds inside of 1 1/4" but velocities were inconsistant.

I then tried one load with the bullets seated deeper at 1.67" o.a.l.
3.5 / TB - 1425, 1408, 1428, & 1400 for the first 4 rounds which grouped into .64". By this time I was thinking that this must be the answer.... but then round 5 went ....811 f.p.s.....what the(?!).

Oh well, more testing to do in the spring.

HORNET,
Thank you for your information on primers. Interesting.

w30wcf

[cbrick]

w30wcf,

Your 811 fps shot "could" have been, "maybe", "possibly" nothing more than the time of year. I always have a tough time getting reliable chrono numbers this time of year. I have always assumed it's because the sun is so low in the southern sky that the sky screens aren't working properly.

Rick

[w30wcf]

cbrick,

Good thought, and I wish that were the case, but shot #5 was much less audible than the previous 4 and and didn't print anywhere on the target.

I'll have another batch loaded for testing in the spring.

w30wcf