Tracks records and ammunition selection

[Petrol & Powder]

There are countless options for self defense ammunition and EVERYONE has their opinion on what is best.

There are no absolute guarantees or solutions that will always be ideal. The best we can do is plan for the greatest number of possibilities and hope our planning fits some unforeseen need. If we could accurately predict the future we would simply always avoid danger.

I look at the problem as a game of Blackjack. While it's possible that I could be holding a hand of 19 and draw a 2, it's highly unlikely that I will draw a 2. Therefore, decisions in Blackjack (21) should be based on Probability not Possibility.

I see the selection of self-defense ammunition the same way. What has the highest probability of working as opposed to what might work.

I look for LONG track records of success.
While some exotic load might work extremely well and some well proven load might fail, I would rather take the more proven path. Call me overly cautious but I prefer to play good odds.

One of of those places where I look for long track records is the selection of self-defense ammunition for short barreled guns chambered in 38 Special.
I define "short barrel" as 2.5" or less.

Within that criteria, and addressing only factory loads for now, I see two factory loads with very long track records:
The "FBI Load" and the Speer Short Barrel load.

The "FBI Load" (a 158 grain SWC hollow point with a soft alloy and driven at +P pressures) has been with us since the early 1970's. It has a well documented history in both 4" barreled guns and short barreled guns.

The Speer Gold Dot 135 gr JHP +P "Short Barrel" load has been with us for well over 25 years.

Are there other options? - Sure
Could there be something available that is better? - Absolutely
Do new loads have longer track records? - NOPE

[rintinglen]

LAPD issued (and may still issue, for all I know) Remington +P 125 grain Hollowpoints in 38 Special for many years. They worked very well. However, I carry either a +p 158 SWCHP or a Speer SB JHP in my snubbies.

[Norske]

Another track record is the effect 357 Magnum 125 JHP loads have on the rear end of K-frame Smith & Wesson revolvers. The rear of the barrel cracks on each side of that flat spot at the barrel's back end. I have my late FIL's model 19 and it happened to him. S&W replaced the barrel and included a warning note about the violence of that fast bullet hitting the weak forcing cone.

[Bigslug]

I think that this is a topic that folks worry WAY too much about, and that worry is seeded, watered, and (ahem) fertilized with glossy magazine advertising hype intended to ensure your money gets spent in the desired place. Round balls and blunt noses killed a lot of people before we were told we'd go bald, blind, and sterile if we didn't buy the flavor of the week.

Since the current FBI wound ballistics protocols became the main governing body for how to design a carry load from the early 1990's to today, the priorities are laid out as follows:

1. Shot placement. You have to put the bullet somewhere where it will be effective.

2. Penetration. The bullet has to go deep enough to hit the organs and nerve clusters that will make it effective. As I like to say, get to the Tootsie-Roll Center of the Tootsiepop. The FBI says the ideal is 12-18 inches in gelatin after getting through whatever "pre-meat" obstacles are in the way.

3. ONLY AFTER GOALS 1 and 2 ARE MET do we start to look at extra diameter as a positive. Light and fast hollowpoints that pancake and stop short do not help us.

Soooo. . .once you've got that settled, what have we got?

We've got all of the ammo manufacturers designing their ammo to perform within the FBI's parameters, and limited by SAAMI operating pressure ranges, making their bullets out of the same basic materials.

And let's say we're talking older tech, like flat point lead bullets, or flat nosed FMJ's used in pocket pistol calibers or snubbies because they don't have enough energy to penetrate sufficiently if they expand. We're dealing with holes that will be about .35 caliber at a minimum, and probably no more than about .90 at most. Pretty minimal differences, and all well short of what you'll get from a full charge of buckshot.

Then there's field reality. A common thread I've noticed is that deer and pigs often take about 8-10 seconds to fall down from a solid cardio hit, and that can be from a relatively boring handgun puncture, or from lungs flayed into liquid from a 2900 fps 30-06. As it pertains to short range lethal conflict, you can do everything right, and still not make it home if the crackhead, lion, or Kodiak bear really want a piece of you.

Madison Avenue will continue to plug their shiny wares, but as Bon Jovi says "It's all the same. Only the names change". Some research warranted; hand-wringing agonization, not so much.

[Petrol & Powder]

I have to completely agree that adequate penetration trumps expansion.

A lot of folks get wrapped around the axle in their attempts to achieve perfect mushrooms. The bullet MUST reach deep enough in order to work. Expansion can be the icing on the cake but it is totally secondary to penetration. In fact, too much expansion, too early; will severely limit penetration.

When you're dealing with a short barreled 38 Special you don't have a lot of extra energy to waste. That's not to say the 38 Special is inadequate but it does mean you can't afford to expend a lot of energy just trying to make the bullet expand, particularly if that expansion starts early.

[charlie b]

There was a really nice bit of research done by someone a couple years ago on real world performance of different calibers, based on a lot of shooting results. The only problem with it was the data compiled was incomplete, ie, much of it came from sources that listed caliber of bullet, number of bullets and if the person died or not. Nothing about where they were hit or how long they lived after being shot. He had statistics on calibers that was pretty good. I thought I had the link somewhere but I can't find it.

It pretty much came to the conclusion that there were a couple of 'classes' of firearms injuries. Small caliber (.22rimfire up to .380), pistols (.38sp to .44mag), rifles and shotguns. The small stuff could kill someone but were more likely to just injure them. The pistols would kill but normally required multiple shots (even when using the 'big' ones like .45acp, .44mag and .357mag). Rifles and shotguns routinely killed with one shot.

This is another set of research that is nice to go back to. Lots of good info there. I especially like the comparisons between snubbies and 4" revolvers.

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/rev...cs-test/#38spl

Also note that he also did the same research on several other calibers including .45acp, 9mm and .380acp.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/sel...llistic-tests/

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/poc...-test-results/

[country gent]

There is a book available that covers police and self defense shootings, I believe the title is One shot stops or something like that. It covers almost every caliber ammo ( factory) used and results.

For years I carried federal hydra shock or WW silver tips for defense also some black Talon ( showing age here), but have switched to the speer short barrel 135 in my j frames. And rem 200 grn golden saber self defense in the 45s. In the 380 its rem 102 grn. I still have hydra shocks for the 10mm and 38 super.

While expansion is a plus and nice benefit I dont rely on it and ts down on my list requirements. Recoil, accuracy, and function are at the top. Ammo that cant be loaded from a strip or speed loader is as desirable nor is ammo that dosnt feed or function.

When the need arises You will need to be fast and accurate, a bullet that misses but fragments at a 2-3" penetration is useless.A load that dosnt feed or stovepipes again is useless. A load you cant control is on the down side, this really becomes an issue in the scandium titanium snubbies.

What I have done is test a few loads in the new defense gun, paying attention to muzzle flash, recoil, accuracy and reliability, reloading revolvers from speed loader. My 340 smith has seen 5 rounds of 357 mag defense ammo, recoil i so quick sharp and violent I cant reliably control it, 3 were friends wanting to try it with magnum loads and 2 were by me testing.

Glassers are good and effective but expensive and may or may not shoot accurately in some guns. In mt 3" kimber 45 they do great all around. Really fillet a wood chuck at roughly 50 yds ( target of opportunity) and didnt exit. Last i bought were 20.00 for 6 rounds. Sometimes a little varmint hunting with the carry gun and ammo of choice reveals a lot.

[Petrol & Powder]

While advertising isn't always false, it is always designed to sell a product. It is because of that motivation to sell a product that advertising is never a good source of information.
It takes a long time to develop track records but the information is far more reliable.

Now, that doesn't mean a new cartridge/gun combination is bad, it just means it hasn't been proven in the real world.

It's that real world proof, gathered over decades, that holds the best information.

[VariableRecall]

As far as I know, before we even talk about boolit composition, just remember that first, you have to be able to reliably hit something center of mass to make it count in the first place. I'd say shot placement is more important than how fancy or spiky your boolits may be.

[Hogdaddy]

357 Mag 4" with 125 gn SJHP are the foo foo ; ) PS Ear piercing
H/D

[Petrol & Powder]

As far as I know, before we even talk about boolit composition, just remember that first, you have to be able to reliably hit something center of mass to make it count in the first place. I'd say shot placement is more important than how fancy or spiky your boolits may be.

True, but after we clear that hurdle, and put the bullet where we want to - the next criteria is terminal performance.
And it is in the area of terminal performance that a LOT of advertising overshadows a LOT of actual results.

[Bigslug]

True, but after we clear that hurdle, and put the bullet where we want to - the next criteria is terminal performance.
And it is in the area of terminal performance that a LOT of advertising overshadows a LOT of actual results.

And to reinforce my jaded cynicism, somewhere on this forum, someone managed to dig up the results of testing in which one of the well-known evaluators of such things had rounded up a bunch of cap and ball replicas and started shooting FBI-spec gelatin. I found it notable that the results from a .44 Colt 1860 Army looked pretty much identical to the 9mm duty loads agencies are coming to regard as "The Answer" today. We've hashed this out at great length in the stickied .38 S&W / Webley thread - the human target has not changed, nor have the limitations of a handgun that can be both carried and controlled. Magic factory duty loads are "better" in that they are very good at giving up all their ability to travel forward by the time they reach the exit-side skin or clothing, but as for actual effectiveness vs the old round ball or flat points. . . I imagine many are cashing in on the fact that this will always be an imperfect science.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have completely written off the FBI"spec".........
Are we FBI? Do we shoot through glass, car doors, windshields, sides of buildings etc??????????????????????????????
Duh,,, NO.
We only shoot to defend Us, Family, property [ in some states] or others if so inclined ...
Close range as in "GET OFF ME!"
This requires the shot to go where and when we want it.
Do we care if the bad guy gets away? [like the PoPo] NOPE......
We only care that the BG stops doing what ever they were doing that caused us to shoot to start with...
We DO NOT want the bullet to hit someone else, just the BG...
So , in town a low penetration load is needed.
In the field , a faster , heaver load [where ranges CAN be longer]
My intown in my revolver is either a WC [target or standard load] or in 38 the Supper Snub 90gr +P [it Will open up ]
Out of town, anyverson of lighter HP is fine [ if it goes through fewer people to hit]
In the woods ,, Magnum , high pressure, or heavy bullet loads for "critters"...
We tend to forget that the intent is to STOP the action.
Not to knock them down, or terminate...
If they get away , so long as me and mine get to go home, that is fine....

[Outpost75]

"A little powda, a lotta lead, shoot'em once, they be dead..."

Attachment 279223

[ABJ]

Of all the previous posters, I am in the camp with "Groo". I worry about over penetration in an urban setting. I do love the lucky gunner test, you can learn a lot by studying their results. As "Petrol" said the Gold Dot short barrel is hard to argue with if using the lucky gunner test.
My question is the test media used the right media? I don't know so I will assume it is until convinced otherwise.
If you use the LG test on 38 and scroll down to the wadcutter and the 158 lswc-hp, they don't look too good. I contend if they were cast in 20:1 and not swaged with 2/3 antimony the results would be much better. But here again what is better a pretty mushroom at 15" or one of those swaged wadcutter wondering around inside the bad guy. I have to confess that I have put a lot of faith in full charge wadcutters and still do. I have shot enough 4 leg critters to good effect with them, even though the test didn't bear out pretty mushrooms.
I have one more confession, I used the LG test to decide what SD ammo I would buy and I bought the pretty mushrooms at less than 18 inches of penetration. Was that the right choice, I don't know for 100% but I'm comfortable with it.
I know Petrol stated for this thread to confine it factory loads but with the ammo shortage, SD reloads thread might be an upcoming topic.
Tony

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm in the camp with Bigslug:

Shot Placement
Penetration
Expansion

In that order.

As for overpenetration, (ie, the bullet completely exits the attacker), that is a risk I'm willing to take.

At that moment in time it is far more pressing that I stop the threat. You can attempt to limit the possibility of overpenetration by selecting a bullet that is likely to expand and stop, but there's no 100% guarantee. I would rather have a bullet (or bullets) that is(are) more likely to penetrate far enough than one that is more likely to stop short. If it comes to that I'll accept the risk of overpenetration - that will be the least of my worries at that point in time.

[Outpost75]

I'm generally in the same camp also, but prefer a large meplat bullet, heavy for the caliber, which provides near full-caliber crush combined with through and through penetration without exhibiting the 180-degree "flip" characteristic of many roundnosed bullets.

Attachment 279238Attachment 279239Attachment 279240

Blunt Shape
Subsonic velocity
Substantial weight
Shot placement

To provide manageable recoil for repetition and complete penetration.

[ABJ]

After posting yesterday, I went to lucky gunner site again and found a video-"Why ballistics gel works and caliber arguments are dumb".
It is very enlightening and relevant to the discussion. It did make me re-think some things. I tried to link to it but my skills are lacking in that dept. It is in the blog section a few pages in.
Tony