Almost There, With My Hunting Handgun

[memtb]

I’ve been trying to get my 460 XVR (8 3/8”) to give me good accuracy, and good velocities with my “homegrown” cast 400 grain bullets. Presently, I’m getting approximately 1440 fps.....which I’m good with. But, extraction is a bit sticky! Will be dropping back a little on the charge.....hoping to keep decent accuracy, without loosing too much velocity!

The group pictured was shot @ 100 yards, using a 3 mil dot Reflex Sight. I’m happy with 4 of the 5 shots, but.....this is almost identical to a previous group. 4 together and throw the 5th. I didn’t think to mark the chambers and determine if the same chamber is throwing the shot. Of course, it may very well be the “nut behind the trigger”! Next groups will be with marked chambers.

I’ve had a lot of help and adult supervision via many texts from a fellow forum member! I need to get this project completed, so he can get some well deserved rest!

My goal is a 150 yard hunting handgun! I’m not there yet.....but, I see light at the end of the tunnel! memtb

[lar45]

What powder are you using? 1440 should be fairly tame compared to Hodgdon data, which goes to nearly 1800fps.
I'm not saying that 1440 with a 400gn bullet is tame, just if you are getting sticky extraction then maybe a slower powder might help.

[Three44s]

You have not given enough details for an educated guess response in return.

Three44s

[PositiveCaster]

Yes, the OP is expecting us to be mind-readers. We need:

- The powder and charge weight
- The exact bullet and alloy - which I assume was cast by the OP
- The oal of the loaded cartridge
- Is the velocity chronographed or just a guess?
- How the pistol was supported when shooting the group
- How will shooting one group with marked chambers help?


.

[memtb]

Yes....1400 is pretty tame, less than desired! Hodgons load data shows substantially higher velocities than many other sources.....not certain what barrel length they are using. CorBon noted for high velocities, is not a great deal faster! Buffalo Bore, indicated significantly higher velocities.....but, there are numerous reports of very difficult extraction! According to much of the data I’ve located....I’m less than 100 fps short of others velocities. I will try IMR 4227, when I get some. It indicates higher velocities. I “will not” be trying Lil Gun!

Wasn’t asking for help.....merely passing on my small successes! I believe others have done similar over the years! memtb

[farmbif]

I'm no hunting expert but I would think a 400 grain bullet moving at 1440 fps might just go though a bull elk long ways.

[memtb]

I'm no hunting expert but I would think a 400 grain bullet moving at 1440 fps might just go though a bull elk long ways.

Thanks farmbif.....that’s the plan! memtb

[lar45]

Hodgdon's site lists a 10 3/4" barrel.
I think 4227 would be a solid choice. The numbers for CFE-BLK look great also.
If you're not looking for max velocity, then a starting load with a slower powder might have less muzzle blast with lower pressure.
I don't have a 460, but I do have a 45-70 BFR and have pushed 405s to 1750 with 4227 and got 1.5" groups at 50 yds. At that level it was not fun to shoot anymore, but was still controllable.
Best of luck with your project.

[green mountain boy]

i cant help but say that this is no saturday night special....having said that i have to assume you like to shoot the big boys (good for you), perhaps once you get to the last round you dont want it to slam your hand any more. many of us are guilty of that myself included, i find 3 shot groups are much easyer on these oldhands and yet give me a more practial group i feel. who blasts 5 at an elk anyway ? ....and by then your bbl is heating up quickly wheather at targets or game. best of luck finding an accurate load that you shoot well.

[memtb]

lar45 & green mountain boy, Thanks for the well wishes! 4227 looks good in some various load data lists......now to get some. Could have bought an 8 pounder this week....but, wasn’t sure that 4227 is the answer.

Pertaining to the shot well outside the group.....I messed up and wasn’t watching through a spotting scope as to which shot went wide. I will mark the chambers, shoot several groups.....and monitor shot to shot to determine if it’s one chamber always throwing the shot. If it is not consistent....then the shooter is the problem! Actually, recoil is not that bad.....but, it could still be the shooter! memtb

[DougGuy]

Go for what is accurate FIRST. If you need to back off the velocity in search of a better group, any animal hit with a 400gr boolit won't notice 200fps slower!

Also, a group like this is what uneven cylinder throats promote, inconsistent recoil impulse due to inherent variations in pressure that comes from uneven throats. If you have a flyer that's consistent, that makes me suspicious about the rest of them. Also, what crimp are you using?

Buffalo Bore uses a collet crimp on their heavyweight hunting loads, I favor a modified collet crimp that provides enough resistance at ignition to let the flame front develop more than what a roll crimp does, it buys you nanoseconds which make a big difference in standard deviation which in turn narrows the extreme spread considerably. In so many words, the more variables you can bring into consistency, the more consistent your recoil impulse will be, and boolits will strike MUCH closer to point of aim because the muzzle movement is more consistent when the boolit exits.

This crimp die, along with at least checking your cylinder throats for consistency and honing them to within .0002" could do wonders for your groups. If it is the loose nut on the trigger, it won't improve much, but if improving the gun makes a difference, then it probably needed to be done.

Here is my modified collet crimp die: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2239315

[memtb]

Thanks for the response Doug. I’m using a typical roll crimp! My bullet essentially has two crimping grooves. The groove that I’m presently using, places the end of the bullet set back quite a ways from the cylinder end. If I use the next groove, the bullet extends just beyond the cylinder end.

Can your collet die be used to crimp somewhere other than the groove as to adjust bullet overall length? I’m not certain if this would make any appreciable difference.

I’ve attempted to measure the throats with an expanding ball....not certain of accuracy. They appear to be very similar in measurements. Can merely “polishing” the chambers and throats help at all?

If that would be a waste......what is your anticipated turn around time on the cylinder? memtb

[DougGuy]

Thanks for the response Doug. I’m using a typical roll crimp! My bullet essentially has two crimping grooves. The groove that I’m presently using, places the end of the bullet set back quite a ways from the cylinder end. If I use the next groove, the bullet extends just beyond the cylinder end.

Can your collet die be used to crimp somewhere other than the groove as to adjust bullet overall length? I’m not certain if this would make any appreciable difference.

I’ve attempted to measure the throats with an expanding ball....not certain of accuracy. They appear to be very similar in measurements. Can merely “polishing” the chambers and throats help at all?

If that would be a waste......what is your anticipated turn around time on the cylinder? memtb

The collet crimp can dig in anywhere along the side of the boolit, it is often used with smooth sided boolits that don't have a cannelure. It holds fast too, roll crimp can't do what the collet does.

The Sunnen can hone within hundredths of a thou, but it's near impossible to actually measure in hundredths. It will get within .0002" just by feel, and it has a readout in tenths of a thousandth while honing. It can get right down to the nitty gritty when you want it to. Lead time is usually less than a week. Click the link in my signature and send a PM. See if you can get a Lee collet crimp die and send it if you do decide to send the cylinder kill two birds with one stone.

[Norske]

Unless Hodgdon specifies use of a handgun, they may be using a pressure barrel without cylinder gap. Second, what primer do they use?

[memtb]

Unless Hodgdon specifies use of a handgun, they may be using a pressure barrel without cylinder gap. Second, what primer do they use?

Yes, not much info on their site as to particulars! memtb

[lar45]

Hodgdon's site lists a Win Large Rifle Magnum primer.

[Lonegun1894]

memtb,
I can definitely recommend DougGuy for cylinder work. But then again, he's only done 5 of mine, I think, so far... Or was it more, DougGuy? Anyway, accuracy was improved with every single one of them, and they were good before, but groups in every single one shrank to 1/2-3/4 of what they were before he fixed my chamber throats.

[memtb]

Thanks Lonegun, That helped a lot. I had faith in Doug, just not our shipping systems! I’m pretty paranoid about sending part of my handgun across the world! Doug mentioned that using the Lee FC Crimp Collet would likely help as well....never tried one, but have heard many brag about them! I’d really like to get the gun to it’s full potential....and then try to keep up! memtb

[TCLouis]

I had a Redhawk and Super Redhawk that did to separate impacts like that .
One could determine they had found a good load when they had an enlarged hole and a hole from a single round 1" or so away at 50.
Never shot it at 100 yards.

Kept saying I was going to determine the off chamber and start with it under the hammer, but never got around to it.

[memtb]

I had a Redhawk and Super Redhawk that did to separate impacts like that .
One could determine they had found a good load when they had an enlarged hole and a hole from a single round 1" or so away at 50.
Never shot it at 100 yards.

Kept saying I was going to determine the off chamber and start with it under the hammer, but never got around to it.

I don’t think that this is at all uncommon. Combining the additional distance (100yards) with the fairly heavy bullet, may be magnifying the cylinder (potential) issues!

I would really like to get this thing to it’s full potential. For many years, I’ve been convinced to take the firearm and loads to their greatest (within reason) potential. Eliminating as much firearm related discrepancies.....means that a miss is shooter related! I deal with failure much better than the unknowns! memtb