What's with the trend towards super hard cast lead alloy low pressure handgun bullets

[45DUDE]

I would say whoever shot the best group was right. I like these posts. People screwing up give me the edge.

[charlie b]

.....This is the reason I want to make my own cast boolits harder, is this unnecessary?

Yes, it is unnecessary in most cases. Doesn't mean you shouldn't do it if you want to.

As mentioned above, the commercial casters make bullets that will withstand shipping so they use harder alloys. If you want the same kind of durability for some reason, then use a harder alloy.

FWIW, the term 'hard cast' for commercial bullets originated a long time ago and was used to differentiate from the cast bullets made for black powder that were soft. There were also swaged bullets, like wadcutters, that were soft.

[Eddie17]

My main source of lead is hard! So that’s what I shoot.

[Cherokee]

Over the years I have been blessed with Linotype and Tin. Obtaining lead has been the more difficult for me. I tried using a Lee hardness tester and could not get the hang of it. Whereas I once used a Lyman #2 alloy (conventional wisdom of the time) for WC to Magnum bullets, I have changed due to experience and knowledge, to softer alloys, but still harder than most shooters on this board. Based on one test series with 9mm, I found that 2% Tin 3% antimony was not up to the task, it took 3% & 3% to get the desired results. I use 2% tin with COWW that works for anything hand held. Everything else gets 3% & 3% alloy. It works for me without leading and I have the blending alloys. Like has already been said, what works for one may be different for another. In todays' world, I would start with soft and work up to harder as proven necessary by your shooting results. Make sure they are sized for the throat. A lot of leading problem result from fit rather than alloy. Most of all, enjoy making them and sending them downrange.

[Mk42gunner]

Personally, I think the term "hard cast, or cast hard" has many different meanings, most of them misunderstood. Go back and read some of Elmer Keith's articles from the 1920's to the 1970's, he referred to 16-1 as hard IIRC, which today seems quite soft.

When I started reading gun magazines in the 70's there were very few articles about casting boolets, most everything that I recall at least inferred that jacketed was better for everything; and if you had to use cast it needed to be "hard" with no real definition of what hard consisted of.

Then in the later 80's mail order bullets became a reality, with the hard crayon lubes that didn't work very well. I remember finding a lot of store bought cast bullets in the berms still with full lube grooves. It was an eye opening experience once I started using FWFL to find boolits in the berm with empty lube grooves.

To me Lyman #5 at a supposed 15 BHN is tending towards the hard side, but I have a problem with it in that the recipe calls for various mixtures with WW as the primary component. Wheel weights are not a set composition, in this thread alone I have seen reference to them being from ~10.? to 14.? BHN (my last batch went 12.5). How can you make a consistent mixture when the primary component varies so much?

The more experience I get casting and shooting cast bullets, the more I tend to go softer on my alloy mixtures. I think fit and a good lube matter more than an arbitrary term like hard cast.

Robert

[tmanbuckhunter]

Commercial bullets, (un)conventional wisdom, and inexperience is why you are seeing this. Plain and simple.

[mdi]

I started casting about 3 weeks ago, so I'm a complete noob. I've been casting 45 ACP round nose (Lyman 45 Caliber 225 Grain 452 diameter mold). I've tested my cast boolits with the Lee hardness tester and got 11.8 as the result. This should be good to go, however I've noticed that my boolits behave differently than the boolits I've bought from companies like Brazos Bullet Company. The boolits from Brazos don't dent when dropped onto a concrete floor from a height of about 3 feet. Also, the tips do not deform when run through a bullet feeder tube. My own cast boolits do dent when dropped on the floor, and the round nose tips also flatten out a small amount when I stack them and run them through a Lee bullet feeder tube for seating. This is the reason I want to make my own cast boolits harder, is this unnecessary?

My answer may not fit your question, but I don't drop my cast bullets from 3' onto a concrete floor. I don't worry about a bullet feeder "flattening" my bullet's nose. I know that my most accurate and best overall performing bullets in my 45 ACP guns runs about 11-12 BHN. Most commercial cast bullets are hard enough to survive shipping (and dropping on a concrete floor) more so then good performance. But good fitting bullets of 18 BHN may work in some guns, but I much prefer "soft cast" (!??!) bullets for most of my handguns. I do have some Lyman #2 and a "Mystery Metal" of 15-16 BHN that works well in my 9mm pistols (after a few hundred tested). I have cast a lot of various bullets for my 5, 44 Magnums and my "normal" handgun alloy has survived some plain based 240 gr SWC over max. loads of WC820 out of my Ruger SBH and my Dan Wesson 44H to approx. 1,300 fps with no excess leading (before I got a chrony)...

I haven't read all the replies, but I'm sure someone will mention that "Mr. 44" did a lot of heavy shooting with 16-1 (11 BHN) and 20-1(10 BHN).

[Soundguy]

Seems like harder or way harder than needed is just a waste of alloy. 22bhn is what? Linotype? That's like shooting straight linotype bullets... Ouch...

[flint45]

I don’t use hard cast bullets for much WW metal is good for most of my shooting. I have found the hard lubes are also difficult my homemade lube works great for me.

[Methuselah3]

I don’t use hard cast bullets for much WW metal is good for most of my shooting. I have found the hard lubes are also difficult my homemade lube works great for me.

Are you using the homeade lube on bullets with the lube grooves. ?I've been in a mind quandary over the topic. The molds I use for Alox lube are Lee with the shallow mini lube grooves. The rest seems to get rubbed off in sizing.

[dtknowles]

I believe in horses for courses. Use what performs best for the application or use whatever if you have no application specific requirements.

Soft lead for Muzzleloaders - the why's and where for's and how soft is soft enough is its own subject.

Not much harder lead for low velocity pistol and rifle bullets unless you just don't have soft lead and would rather use what you have. If you use harder lead make sure they are big enough.

Magnum handguns running full blast and mid velocity rifles, now you are getting into Lyman #2 range unless you are powder coating, using a gas check or want the bullet to expand. If you want the bullet to expand it will need to be soft. You might get leading with a softish bullet even with a gas check but if you are wanting expansion then you are probably willing to live with a little leading that you will have to clean out after a hunting or self-defence situation or you are going to need to PowderCoat/HiTech.

Over 2000 fps even #2 alloy is sometimes not hard enough for good accuracy and best accuracy requires either heat treated bullets or Linotype. Not just any old lube will hold up at these velocities either.

While I can afford the best metals, I am still frugal and don't use more tin or antimony than I need to get the best accuracy. Harder is not always better accuracy wise but it is rarely worse if the bullet is the right size.

Flat spot on the nose of a roundnose 45 acp bullet should not be a problem in any way. I use a flat punch when sizing my roundnose 9mm bullets, I like them to come out as roundnose flat points but I am careful that they all get the same flatness. The acronym is RNFP. I have some molds that cast them that way for .38 Special/357 Mag

Tim

[bangerjim]

10-12 hardness here. Nothing greater unless it's "hyper sonic sooper-dooper-looper" 30 cal rifle boolits for the 30-06.

Cast what you want. I do not need hard lead, especially with PC on every round.

The old school thoughts on hard lead are a thing of the past, what with new data on PC'd rounds.

Save your hard lead for sweetening pure to make 10-12.

Like said - com casters ship waaaaay harder lead than needed to prevent damage in transit. I had a few thousand of com-cast BIG 45's for my long colt guns I gradually melted into pure and made perfect boolits at 10-12. Did not want them, as they were old fashioned sticky grease lubed and was much easier to melt down than boil off grease lube grease and PC.

Cast & shoot what works for you. We all have different ideas of what works for each of us and our specific guns.

[Rcmaveric]

If you get good results. Don't change. I won't knock someone for not using what I use. We do need to keep in mind that too hard of a bullet can also cause issue just as bad as too soft.

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