"It Finally Happened to Me"

[FLINTNFIRE]

Do not let this incident scare one as when you read the oily bore and funny smoke coming up is a pretty good clue , as to shooting at matches and clubs where the practice is forbidden of blowing down barrel make a blowtube or do not go , I choose to shoot with friends or by myself for enjoyment or a friendly wager of Guinness , reading about the reenactors shooting powder with no wadding even makes me shake my head , toilet paper makes a great wadding for a noisemaker load .

[waksupi]

There is no suction from a fired anything, that's not how it works(burning powder, expanding gas volume), now the reenactors having the contaminated burning ember bore problem, I can see that.

Try shooting an animal with muzzle contact, check your bore afterwards, and then tell me there is no suction.

[Caswell Ranch]

Try shooting an animal with muzzle contact, check your bore afterwards, and then tell me there is no suction.

There is no suction, I don't know what you are muzzle contact shooting but that would be spray/splatter.

In order for a projectile to be sent, gas has to be produced quickly and in greater volume than the bore capacity (x amount of cubic inches of space, more cubic inches of gas), when the projectile is exiting the bore excess gas flashes outward around the projectile, because the gas volume is greater than the cubic capacity of the bore you have exhaust not suction.
Basic ballistics, physics.

As this relates to the person that first posted the suction comment, the ball leaving the barrel is being driven by expanding gas, not being pulled from the barrel like a tight fitting patch on a jag when cleaning, no suction exists to pull embers out, they are forced out or stick to a contaminated bore (oil/melted patch lube, paper etc).

[FLINTNFIRE]

Well I respect Waksupi and his experience , and with that I would say you may have some basic ballistic knowledge and physics and you may not , but I do not discount someones experience and observations .

And as to loading from a horn or flask or other things I have used hunting in real experience myself I have loaded straight from a prince albert pocket tin ( man that was the handiest container ) on a quick follow up shot dispatching a wounded elk (already wounded when I ran into it ) that should have dropped from my first shot but did not and I did slide down the sidehill to put rifle right up to ear for follow up .

So take what you want from the original post and follow your own decisions , more then one way to skin a cat or so I have heard .

[mooman76]

Well, when I stated suction, that was probably poor choice of words but I still believe there is a force to pull of push more powder out than when firing just blank powder.

[Caswell Ranch]

Well I respect Waksupi and his experience , and with that I would say you may have some basic ballistic knowledge and physics and you may not , but I do not discount someones experience and observations .

And as to loading from a horn or flask or other things I have used hunting in real experience myself I have loaded straight from a prince albert pocket tin ( man that was the handiest container ) on a quick follow up shot dispatching a wounded elk (already wounded when I ran into it ) that should have dropped from my first shot but did not and I did slide down the sidehill to put rifle right up to ear for follow up .

So take what you want from the original post and follow your own decisions , more then one way to skin a cat or so I have heard .

1) no disrespect was implied to anyone.
2) I have and will load from metal flask and horn, I also blow down the barrel and have done so for 50 years.
3) blood in the bore in my opinion is from spray, just because somebody assumes the cause does not make it so, Waksupi is wrong and no disrespect is intended. Many times I have seen statements made by people that they believe to be correct but was never researched or may not have personal experience with.
4) as to I may or may not have ballistic experience, I'm still a contract firearms/SRT instructor for USASOC, FBI and local LE, I worked active counter terrorist and drug interdiction (past) , work with Sig and Springfield on firearm design and ballistics. Shot competitively for years attaining Distinguished Master, Grand Master certification.
5) looks like thread is drifting so I will no longer comment on it, I'll leave it to the forum click.
6) more than one way to skin a cat, exactly , but people today very rarely search their own experience though doing and rely on forums and here say, the short point of my first post on this thread.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Not sure if this is suction, but this guy claims wads, under the boolit and on top of the powder get sucked back to the back of the barrel when firing.

It seems that the high pressure from the burning powder causes wads to get turned around in the turbulent gases. Many of those wads do not exit the muzzle, but end up at the bottom of the firing chamber, probably because, while the ball is traveling up the barrel, gases are escaping through the touch hole and the wads are "blown" toward the touch hole because of a pressure gradient.

The accumulation of wads in the bottom of my bore was a huge mystery to me and they completely clogged up my musketoon when I took it out to fire it for the first time. I didn't have a "worm" for removing such things at the time and so I had a very hard time removing what was down there. When I started to pull out wad after wad from the breech, I was really astounded and it took me a couple of hours to get all of them out of there.

http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Muske...Flintlock.html

[Caswell Ranch]

Not sure if this is suction, but this guy claims wads, under the boolit and on top of the powder get sucked back to the back of the barrel when firing.


http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Muske...Flintlock.html

In my opinion based on something I experienced along the lines here, the over powder card/wad is small for the bore and the card is able to flip in the bore and if you reload and the card is sideways the powder will pass it, then seat another undersize card and repeat the loading prosses, his first statement above is almost on track but they find the way back by loading the next shot, this shooter should have noticed his seating depth changing (mark on rod) with so many cards/wads in the bore.
Anyway , sorry I did not stick to my comment above ( 5) ) but will.

[6string]

RFD,

Glad you were not seriously hurt.
And, no ridicule is deserved.
If anything, I pass along my thanks and admiration. It's a true testimony to character to put forth a hard earned experience for the benefit of others.

Jim

[Caswell Ranch]

RFD,

Glad you were not seriously hurt.
And, no ridicule is deserved.
If anything, I pass along my thanks and admiration. It's a true testimony to character to put forth a hard earned experience for the benefit of others.

Jim

Nothing happened to RFD, he posted an article from 2013. People don't read the thread in full only two or three posts above the point they comment, not just 6string it is the same everywhere.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Firearms instructor for those does not impress me much and I will still take someones experience over what you wish or believe either and did not imply any disrespect either , as to anyones credentials its the internet say what you want as people do , thread was about someones experience .

I remember a thread where you disputed a members statement when in fact he was correct on powder sizes and you later went in and deleted your snide part of post as you were wrong , instead of apologizing and admitting that you had the size correlation wrong .

So that is but one reason I will take someone who I find has more knowledge on somethings experience and word , but believe what you want as it is a free country .

[6string]

Nothing happened to RFD, he posted an article from 2013. People don't read the thread in full only two or three posts above the point they comment, not just 6string it is the same everywhere.

Ah Yes. My mistake. I guess I get a bit myopic when using these devices, and seeing bold print!

[indian joe]

I see this statement a lot, how would a person measure the drop ? who pours an unknown amount freely from a flask. Many times (if the incident actually happened) other factors are at play as is the case in the original post, I have used a metal flask and horn with measure spout with a valve to close off spout from flask for years and it too was permitted at shoots years ago along with blowing down the barrel, the hobby and sport of black powder shooting is in danger of fading away in part because people think it's too dangerous because black powder is an explosive (not), guns blow up if you don't seat the ball (not true), your powder flask if used as it was intended will blow up in your hands (no), what a bunch of bull.
Modern smokeless powder has more energy than any black powder and it's just listed as powder, it's use blows up black powder guns more than any other cause.
The measure in the original post may have traveled as it did because the holder threw it (involuntary motion ) like putting your hand on a hot surface, as I stated above with regard to other factors, normally the time from shot to loading gives time for any smoldering to be done with, if you have a contaminated bore or are trying to speed shoot you may get unlucky and have a small Roman candle, odds are if you are using a horn the base cap will come off before pressure is high and most flasks made today will split the seams before ever being a hand grenade, the brass cylinder type have a valve and the measure of powder is in the spout and closed from the rest of the powder (bet if a sign of a flash started the thing would be flung), I know somebody is going to make a point that the flame can get past the valve , well it may but people around the forums hate Pattern breach stating the channel/antechamber is too restrictive for positive ignition , the flask valves are designed to be a no flash valve if kept clean.
Anyway, the hobby/sport is fading away, many gun store don't stock powder because of restrictions and lack of demand, recycling old horror stories just drives the point, some post stories that are not true just to be part of a thread, you know how it goes,
" well a friend of my brother's uncle's nephew was looking at a container of black powder, can't remember what brand, anyway, he was looking at it so hard it blew up". We need to support the sport, not keep repeating half truth and wives tales . My 2 cents.

I have a couple of issues with this one
1) if you use a measure spout on your horn or flask and ignite from an ember down the barrel - the whole thing is going to burn really really really fast and choosing to say it didnt explode is an excercise in semantics - if you dont lose some fingers at the least the burns are gonna be serious.
2) good luck with the idea that the shutoff valve will stop the main reserviour of powder catching when the charge in the spout catches alight - it might ......might not too.
3) will it blow up ? no - yeah - maybe - dont know till you try - I seen remains of a couple horns turned into shrapnel - didnt see it happen...........
4) gun wont blow up if you dont seat the ball (he thinks) how many ring bulged barrels you seen from short started ball? 15/16" and 1" octagons with a visible bulge - do the same to a thin walled musket barrel - good chance you put a window in that one . Think blackpowder cant blow a barrel ? think again ol buddy - put more enough powder and more enough boolit in you will either blow the nipple out or split the tube at some point. There may be some limit to how much pressure blackpowder can generate when its confined but I believe it is several times what a good steel gun barrel can stand

[waksupi]

I have a couple of issues with this one
1) if you use a measure spout on your horn or flask and ignite from an ember down the barrel - the whole thing is going to burn really really really fast and choosing to say it didnt explode is an excercise in semantics - if you dont lose some fingers at the least the burns are gonna be serious.
2) good luck with the idea that the shutoff valve will stop the main reserviour of powder catching when the charge in the spout catches alight - it might ......might not too.
3) will it blow up ? no - yeah - maybe - dont know till you try - I seen remains of a couple horns turned into shrapnel - didnt see it happen...........
4) gun wont blow up if you dont seat the ball (he thinks) how many ring bulged barrels you seen from short started ball? 15/16" and 1" octagons with a visible bulge - do the same to a thin walled musket barrel - good chance you put a window in that one . Think blackpowder cant blow a barrel ? think again ol buddy - put more enough powder and more enough boolit in you will either blow the nipple out or split the tube at some point. There may be some limit to how much pressure blackpowder can generate when its confined but I believe it is several times what a good steel gun barrel can stand

I would sure prefer smokeless power igniting than black powder. Smokeless wouldn't be nearly as exciting.

[waksupi]

There is no suction, I don't know what you are muzzle contact shooting but that would be spray/splatter.

In order for a projectile to be sent, gas has to be produced quickly and in greater volume than the bore capacity (x amount of cubic inches of space, more cubic inches of gas), when the projectile is exiting the bore excess gas flashes outward around the projectile, because the gas volume is greater than the cubic capacity of the bore you have exhaust not suction.
Basic ballistics, physics.

As this relates to the person that first posted the suction comment, the ball leaving the barrel is being driven by expanding gas, not being pulled from the barrel like a tight fitting patch on a jag when cleaning, no suction exists to pull embers out, they are forced out or stick to a contaminated bore (oil/melted patch lube, paper etc).

How can there be splatter with a bullet and gases exiting the bore? Anything ahead of the bullet is moving at impact velocity away from point of impact. When you vacate a tube at velocity, what do you think fills that void, and how? Do you think it remains the same air pressure indefinitely? I don't think you understand the dynamics of internal ballistics.

[Battis]

Just trying to wrap my brain around the idea of inward suction in a gun barrel. Does it happen with all bullets or just BP roundballs exiting the muzzle? If there was suction, how would gasses escape through the touchhole?
If you drop a ball down a PVC pipe that's up against the surface of water, the ball, as it exits the pipe, will push through the water's surface, and behind the ball will be splatter that could go up the pipe.

[indian joe]

Not sure if this is suction, but this guy claims wads, under the boolit and on top of the powder get sucked back to the back of the barrel when firing.


http://geojohn.org/BlackPowder/Muske...Flintlock.html

I think his ramrod and/or the wads is too small diameter and the wads are tipping sideways when he rams them down (easy enough to do) the wads end up sideways and pushed down in the powder charge

[maillemaker]

I've been competition shooting in the North-South Skirmish Association for about 9 years. In that time I have had 3 cookoffs during rapid-fire team events, in both a smoothbore reproduction M1842 musket and a reproduction P53 Enfield. I have also witnessed/heard at least 2 other cookoffs on the line in that time.

Mine always happened on the second shot. It is possible that there was wet/fouled powder that was smoldering, but it's also possible that the cheap medical gauze pads I use for cleaning patches between each course of fire left some fuzz/lint in the bore and it was smoldering.

The N-SSA does not allow loading from a flask. Most people use plastic/cardboard tubes full of powder, with the bullet stuck in as a cork. To use, you remove the bullet, pour in the powder (while keeping your hands and fingers away from the muzzle), and then place the bullet in the muzzle with two fingers (and never "thumb the ball"). Because of this loading procedure, I did not experience any ill effects from my cookoffs. However, I still have black powder embedded in the pad of my forefinger, a kind of black powder "tattoo".

I personally would never place my head over the barrel of a gun, even if I "knew" it was "unloaded". But, people will have to decide for themselves whether this risk is comparable to the risk of a cookoff.

I also would never load from a flask.

But, it is up to each shooter to decide for themselves what kind of risks they find acceptable.

Steve

[FLINTNFIRE]

You are blowing down barrel before you put any powder in , there is no risk of any powder igniting.

[maillemaker]

You are blowing down barrel before you put any powder in , there is no risk of any powder igniting.

I understand, but the 4 rules of firearm safety are:

1) Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2) Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
3) Never point a firearm at anything you do not wish to destroy.
4) Always be sure of your target and what lies beyond it.

The problem is not when you do it when everything is safe. The problem is once you allow yourself to get into the habit of sometimes putting your body over the muzzle, if you ever end up in a situation where something happened where it is not safe (say you forgot it was loaded), you could be in danger.

Things happen. I've double-balled a musket before because I got distracted on the firing line trying to hand someone some percussion caps when they ran out.

It's up to each person to decide which rules to follow or not.

Steve