CVA Hawken Question

[mooman76]

I've never had an issue with the kits. I haven't done allot of them but have done at least 4 that I remember.

[FLINTNFIRE]

I have done 3 and had fitment issues with the stock on the kentucky kit , and when I called the lady offered to send out another spacer as she knew exactly what I was talking about , rest of that kit was fine , frizzen sparks great . Pistol kit I had to make my own pin no big deal as pinning stock is on my shelf .

But I built a TC kit rifle and they had inlet the trigger off by 3/8 or more , and when I contacted them it was a form reply thanking me for buying , no mention of apology or checking to see that machine was cutting it right .

I prefer kits from scratch or minimal work or inletting , though I have several I have not got back to working on .

Glad to hear you have the date down and you will enjoy shooting it .

[Eddie2002]

Seems most of the kits can be a challenge. My first kit build was a Hawken from Cabella's and the inletting on the patch box was really poor. Had to work the brass along the edge of the patch box with a hammer to fill in the extra space. The wood was so proud around the butt stock plate I ended up running an 80 grit belt in the sander just to get close enough for hand planes and files, it must of been a good 1/4 inch proud and took a lot of grinding to get it even close.
The CVA Hawken I started the thread about had the trigger assembly inletting so deep the set trigger wouldn't work as well as a butt ugly factory finish and rough sand casted brass. I'll guess it was never fired until I got it. Not complaining, sometimes an older factory rifle is a better deal and a lot more fun to overhaul than building a kit.

[indian joe]

Hey Joe,

I think all CVA kits had something wrong with them.
Anyone who could build one of these and make it look nice was a true craftsman.

AntiqueSledMan.

I'm stalled halfway through a kentucky kit build now --- alls left of the kit is the barrel tho - had a nice curly maple stock , + Davis single set trigger + L & R Flintlock - not sticking strictly to style just a nice little shooter with quality parts

[mooman76]

The Mountain rifles were notorious for being inlet too deep. Easy fix was to shim out the trigger. The one I had if you set the butt stock down the least little bit too hard, the hammer would fall. I know you shouldn't be setting it down with the hammer back but what else would make it happen. Shimming the trigger assy did the trick. I wonder if the poor stock fit has something to do with the wood drying. I bought a Kentucky kit a few years back. It was purchased in 1974 and never put together. It had a crack in the wood behind where the lock would go. Just a small crack easily fixed but it looked like it was due to wood drying.

[indian joe]

Another little difference I noticed - my 28 inchCVA barrels - the model designation (Hawken , Missouri ) looked like an afterthought stamping, maybe done later in the processing of the kit - Hawken and Missouri barrels were an interchange - Frontier model had same barrel dimensions but stock was different - shorter forend, longer under rib, dovetails different spacing. Locks were different too although I have messed with mine enough I forget which had what - Missouri had Big lockplate Kentucky and Mountain rifle had small lockplate - hammers were different but would interchange - other internals were same/similar . Some early Kentucky kits had a mongrel lock with no bridle to support it - both mine came with bridle lock, fly in tumbler and adjusting screw but were single triggers.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hey Joe,

I had a Frontier Rifle back in 1980, that thing shot like a million dollars (wish I still had it).
Since then I picked up a couple Frontier Carbines, actually one is marked Frontier Rifle.
Both have 24" barrels with 1:48 twist, my old Frontier had 1:66 twist 28" barrel.
I won many matches shooting cast balls.
These don't shoot like my old one did.

AntiqueSledMan.

[mooman76]

Hey Joe,

I had a Frontier Rifle back in 1980, that thing shot like a million dollars (wish I still had it).
Since then I picked up a couple Frontier Carbines, actually one is marked Frontier Rifle.
Both have 24" barrels with 1:48 twist, my old Frontier had 1:66 twist 28" barrel.
I won many matches shooting cast balls.
These don't shoot like my old one did.

AntiqueSledMan.

Me too exactly. Mine shot both RBs and conicals real well. In fact I shot it at the monthly meet and everyone laughed at it's size until they saw I took two events with it. Wish I still had it, it's one of those that got away.

[mooman76]

Another little difference I noticed - my 28 inchCVA barrels - the model designation (Hawken , Missouri ) looked like an afterthought stamping, maybe done later in the processing of the kit - Hawken and Missouri barrels were an interchange - Frontier model had same barrel dimensions but stock was different - shorter forend, longer under rib, dovetails different spacing. Locks were different too although I have messed with mine enough I forget which had what - Missouri had Big lockplate Kentucky and Mountain rifle had small lockplate - hammers were different but would interchange - other internals were same/similar . Some early Kentucky kits had a mongrel lock with no bridle to support it - both mine came with bridle lock, fly in tumbler and adjusting screw but were single triggers.

It seemed there for awhile, just before CVA quite selling sidelocks that it would put out a new (named) ML almost as much as people change their underware. Usually they would have one or two tiny little changes to it's style.

[pietro]

At the risk of raising everyones hackles I will say ------Hawken got it wrong and made it work - whoever set up CVA at the start knew their business with round ball better than the Hawkens (or anybody else for that matter)

T/C didn't get their Hawken wrong with the compromise 1:48" twist wrong (they also made some 32" bbl'd Hawken's with a 1:66" twist), they were simply trying to make an all-around rifle that would shoot either PRB's or conicals accurate enough for hunting.

I guess being all things to all people worked, because a 1"48" twist has become the standard twist rate for most frontstuffer manufacturers.

My .50 CVA Mountain Rifle has a 1:66" twist - for which I'm glad, as I've been wanting to try a PRB long gun.

( I have long had a .45 T/C Seneca for using conicals)

[hylander]

True, T/C did want a one gun for all, which worked for marketing, but not so well in the real world
if a person wants real accuracy.
They made a twist rate and groove depth that does neither RB or conicals great, just well enough to get by.
Twist to slow for conicals and groove depth to shallow for RB.
T/C cut their grooves only .004 deep, fine for conicals but way to shallow for RB.
For a 50 Cal: Best accuracy for conicals need a twist closer to 1:32
Round ball 1:60 or slower with grooves .010 or deeper.
Just my personal experience, YMMV.

[FLINTNFIRE]

Just my personal experience TC rifles I have owned and shot did very well with minies maxis and roundball , still have 1 TC have gave 1 to son and 1 to my son in law , father has had same experiences , and in the english sporting rifle/ hawken I bought as it is truly a mix of both twist is slow and it still shoots maxis and such along with round ball well .

Depth of rifling would to be more important on a slug then a ball as patch is what is engaging rifling , YMMV mine is what has worked for me with my loads , conventional wisdom or what works . But this is keyboard shooting about a subject and I am going out shooting the black powder rifles both slow twist and fast and maybe a revolver or 2 so have a good day and buy and use whatever you wish and what you like as I will myself .

[Edward]

Just my personal experience TC rifles I have owned and shot did very well with minies maxis and roundball , still have 1 TC have gave 1 to son and 1 to my son in law , father has had same experiences , and in the english sporting rifle/ hawken I bought as it is truly a mix of both twist is slow and it still shoots maxis and such along with round ball well .

Depth of rifling would to be more important on a slug then a ball as patch is what is engaging rifling , YMMV mine is what has worked for me with my loads , conventional wisdom or what works . But this is keyboard shooting about a subject and I am going out shooting the black powder rifles both slow twist and fast and maybe a revolver or 2 so have a good day and buy and use whatever you wish and what you like as I will myself .

My experience as well ,when yer right yer right/Ed

[indian joe]

My experience as well ,when yer right yer right/Ed

The point I was trying to make above was
The Hawkens and other later makers managed to "make it work" by compensating for the excessively fast twist (1:48 for roundball is far from ideal) so they made a compensating error of super deep rifling --- from which arose the fairy story that roundball needed deep rifling and the further fairy story that the deep rifling was needed to accomodate the fouling ------ circling back to my other comment that whoever organised CVA at the beginning absolutely nailed it with the rifling geometry (for round ball) their groove depth is less than most other slow twist barrels I have seen - these things are just so easy to load for - a decent CVA barrel will shoot accurate from pipsqueak loads right up to overload - only caveat is the patches need to hold up.

At present I am shooting a nice light little 45cal flinter I built with a 40"x 13/16" shallow groove, cheap, Belgian barrel. Its a 1:48 twist and we do fine so long as I keep the lid on the powder charge it dose a rapid transit from bullseyes (55 grain FFFg) to absolutely blown it (70 grains FFFg)

So yeah the compromise twist will shoot ok they just a little bit more pernickity is all .

[Eddie2002]

Indian Joe, I have the same thing with a CVA Frontier in .50 caliber. It's a later model made in '88 with the 24 inch 1:48 barrel instead of the earlier model with the 28 inch 1:66 barrel. Anything above 55 grains of 3F and the shot pattern opens way up. Don't know how many hours I spent trying to get the load right till out of frustration I dropped it under 50 grains which really has helped. Right now my problem is too many front stuffers and not enough range time. Need to pack a lunch, a comfy chair and make a day at the range.

[Tripplebeards]

My traditions pioneer I just picked up that was never fired is stamped the same. I would assume the muzzle loader manufacturers bought their barrels from the same manufacturer in Spain?

[pietro]

.

AFAIK, Bergara is the maker of Spanish marked muzzleloader barrels, so most likely many imported muzzleloaders (not guns from Italy, however) use them - and they all seem to be pretty accurate.