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Thread: Swaging Die Design -- Do I have this right?

  1. #61
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    For the UK guys (and others) who want blue-prints:

    http://www.fourten.org.uk/
    --- Listed under "January 2010: How to Make a .410 Slug Swaging Die"
    ------- Currently at the top of the list under their "Whats New" section.

    Yah, I know. Took me long enough. But, better late then never.

  2. #62
    Boolit Master

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    I'm curious if you have any idea how much pressure these loads develop ?? Factory loads using 1/5 oz slugs hit 1500fps, how is it possible to drive 5x the slug weight to the same velocity without a huge rise in chamber pressure ?

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  3. #63
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    I'm curious if you have any idea how much pressure these loads develop ?? Factory loads using 1/5 oz slugs hit 1500fps, how is it possible to drive 5x the slug weight to the same velocity without a huge rise in chamber pressure ?

    Bill
    First of all I respectfully point out that your initial information about factory loads is incorrect:

    Factory 1/4oz. 3" magnum 410-bore slugs are rated at between 1,750 and 1,800 fps. SAMMI max pressure for 3" mag. 410-bore cartridges is 13.5-K

    ----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=557703
    ----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=929044

    The one and only factory 1/4oz. 2-1/2" 410-bore slug I know of is rated at 1,775 fps. SAMMI max pressure for 2-1/2" 410-bore cartridges is 12.5-K

    ----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=414800

    Factory 1/5oz. 2-1/2" 410-bore slugs are rated at 1,830 fps. SAMMI max pressure for 2-1/2" 410-bore cartridges is 12.5-K

    ----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=415676
    ----- http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=164681





    Secondly, various factory loadings of 2-1/2" 410-bore cartridges deliver payloads of lead and bismuth shot charges with weights between 7/16 and 1/2 oz. at between 1,200 and 1,350 fps. Various factory loadings 3" mag. 410-bore cartridges deliver payloads of lead and bismuth shot charges with weights between 5/8 and 3/4 oz. at between 1,100 and 1,300 fps. Again SAMMI max pressures are 12.5-K and 13.5-K respectively. With finely tuned hand load recipes even more impressive things are capable. I personally know of one recipes for 3" magnum 410-bore shells that uses Reloader-7 powder to propel a 1/2 oz payload of bismuth shot to just over 1,700 fps. It is a very effective load for hunting waterfowl.



    So yes, it is entirely possible to propel the slugs produced by my die that weigh between 1/4 and 1/2 oz. (109 to 219 grains) to well over 1,500 fps with ease. While still staying well within SAAMI max pressure limits.

  4. #64
    Boolit Master

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    OK I will concede that my memory on factory slug data was not up to date.

    However do you have pressure data that shows firing a 1/2 oz slug creates the same pressure as 1/2 oz of shot ?? I'm not doubting your thought process a bit, just asking if you have any solid pressure test data to back it up ? Seems to me the ammo companies would be all over making up slug loads with 2x the projectile weight if they could pull it off ?

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  5. #65
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Ah !!!! --------- The old "But Slugs Produce Higher Pressures - You Can't Load them By Equal Weight Shot Loads" argument.

    Have you ever heard of an ammunition company known as Dixie Slugs? Here is a link to their web site:

    http://www.dixieslugs.com

    The owner, "James," who from my research has over 50 years experience with the commercial manufacture of ammunition is a member and semi. active poster on this forum.

    I would like to reference a few of his past posts at this time:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...0&postcount=10
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...8&postcount=46
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...5&postcount=42
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...37&postcount=7
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...70&postcount=5

    Here are the exact excerpts of said posts that I am referring to:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    Let's put pressur into focus indeed! Our Terminator (.730'-730 gr - 1250'/") and Tusker (.727"-600 grs-1500'/'- 1 3/8 oz)) are within the working pressure of 12 ga 3" Mag...tested by Ballistic Research! That's out of a 20" rifled barrel!
    A solid does not have the pressure of shot load of equal slug weight/powder weightr, due to the difference in sidewall pressure. The original Paradox pushed a .730-730 gr hard solid at 1200'/" with Cordite.
    We have people making speculation of pressure that has not had loads tested in a pressure gun....we do!
    Now...an equal weight solid will have no more pressure than a shot load at the chamber and less at the nuzzle....if the powder burn is correct and the weight of powder tested. CUT
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    CUT A good safe place to start with powder is to use the same amount showing for an equal weight shot. Slug/buulet laods have less sidewall pressure. friction than an equal weight of shot. CUT
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    Let me explain something right up front. I spent my entire adult life working for the gum and ammo co's, in various postions, including Vice-Pres & Director of Marketing for the former Smith & wesson Ammo Co. Duriing all that time I was fortunate to have rubbed elbows with some of the old Greats.
    When I retired and moved back to my native state of Florida.....I got tired of fishing and general loafing around. Ammo is in my blood and the results was Dixie Slugs. I enjoy the head to head talk with my customers....there is no middlemen eating up dollars.
    Now....as I have said before, there is a growing intrerest in rifled barrels.....and not only in shotgun-only-states. Many of our customers have been involved witj hard cast in handguns.....a natural progression to large rifled barrels.
    I really do not claim to have a good bedside manner and sometime come off a little caustic when I see speculation, instead of facts. With all the sydicated gas bag writers today, the web is about the only place left to get facts!
    I am nothing more that an old mossy-back ammo man!
    Regards, James
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    Exactly! As I have mentioned, and based on pressure tests, solids do not have the side wall pressure/friction, that an equal weight/velocity as a shot load. CUT When you move over to rifled barrels and solids, a good place to start is equal powder to match an equal weight shot charge. CUT
    Quote Originally Posted by Dixie Slugs View Post
    CUT Fact!...different wad columns do not change pressure, up or down, as much as weight of slug/bullet or velocity.
    A beginning load for a solid starts with a shot load of equal weight. Solids do not have the sidewall pressure/friction the a shot load has.
    There are many different opinions as to powder burn rate....and single base vs double base powders. In most cases, the powder recommended for a certain shot weight is close for a equal soild's weight. CUT
    The ONLY change I have made to those posts I am quoting is to cut out stuff that is off topic for this particular discussion. In such cases I indicated where I had made such cuts by putting in "CUT" in what I quoted. These are taken directly from his posts that I linked to and are in respective order to the links so you can double check me if you wish.




    I try to as civilized of a man as I can be in my speech in person and my written word such as on this forum - that said there are certain things that do get under my skin and are a MAJOR irritation to me. The various false theories perpetrated against using lead shot load data as a safe and sane starting point for slug loads is one of those things. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and make the assumption that you are the victim of bad information. If that is not the case I have one more link to another members post, she has a mouth on her and says things exactly like she sees them. I couldn't state it better myself, please note that this is only for the off case that I’m wrong and your not simply the victim of misinformation but rather a/the perpetrator of said misinformation:

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...76&postcount=5

  6. #66
    Boolit Master

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    I'm not arguing with you, merely asking for information.

    I'm not a victim of anything, these are MY own questions generated by my own cautions against blowing my guns up and or worse.

    Shotguns we both know work at very low pressures, and may not be nearly as forgiving of errors as say center fire rifles. A 10,000 psi pressure excursion is a lot worse in a shotgun than say a 30-06 rifle, which will typically sustain a 2x overload before the action will fail (the brass will fail and release gas, which may do damage)

    So the idea of dropping a 2 oz slug on top of the powder charge that generates 12,000 lup with 2 oz of #9 shot and expecting the same pressure DOES make sense, but I have always been a bit SCARED to try it without actually seeing some data to support doing so.

    it seems to me that in SOME cases one would have to ensure that the gas seal wad you used would be the same as what was used in the published data (for shotgun hulls with tapered inner walls)

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  7. #67
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willbird View Post
    I'm not arguing with you, merely asking for information.

    I'm not a victim of anything, these are MY own questions generated by my own cautions against blowing my guns up and or worse. . . .
    Glad to hear it, sorry I got a little testy with you. It's one of my "buttons" (as in "pushing someone's buttons").

    . . . . Shotguns we both know work at very low pressures, and may not be nearly as forgiving of errors as say center fire rifles. A 10,000 psi pressure excursion is a lot worse in a shotgun than say a 30-06 rifle, which will typically sustain a 2x overload before the action will fail (the brass will fail and release gas, which may do damage) . . . .
    I absolutely agree 100% personally I don't have pressure testing equipment of my own (working on that - pressure trace system is on the "saving up to buy" list) so I am forced to rely on the advice of others much more experienced then I that do have pressure testing equipment such as Mr. James owner of Dixie Slugs also Ed Hubel, and Greg.

    I have developed a crude method of comparing the pressures of two different shotgun loads by deliberately producing a flaw in the chambers of my guns that I use for load development that gives the brass head on the hulls a spot to bulge out into and by measuring and comparing the severity of the bulge between test loads and book loads with known pressures using the exact same hulls from the exact same lot number and bag with a micro-meter. I have confirmed this method will let me compare the pressures of two different loads to each other. If I take ten hulls and load half of them with a certain charge and then load the other half with that exact same charge minus a single grain of powder and then mix the hulls up after they are fired I can sort them back out and tell you which five were the ones with the slightly lighter charge. It still puts me in an awkward position though that I still have to rely on published loads as a comparison factor so I have to find something in a book that's similar to what I'm trying to work up. I always match the hull and I strongly prefer to match the primer, powder, and at least get close to using the same wad column.

    I, also, use the strongest possible guns I have for initial load development. For 12ga. and 20ga. slug load development I use my NEF-USH guns as a test bed. That design has been proven to take well over twice the pressure of normal factory loads on a continual basis and be no worse off for the abuse by Ed Hubel he has pushed them to their limit. For 410 load development I usually use my Saiga-410 for firing the first few loads of a new combination. It has the same frame as an AK-47 and thus the action at least can take rifle pressure levels --- the first part of the barrel where it locks into the receiver is built just as heavy as its rifle counterpart. Unfortunately the barrel does get thinner from then on but still it's the strongest gun I've got in 410-bore.

    . . . . the idea of dropping a 2 oz slug on top of the powder charge that generates 12,000 lup with 2 oz of #9 shot and expecting the same pressure DOES make sense, but I have always been a bit SCARED to try it without actually seeing some data to support doing so. . . .
    Greg has done exactly that and beyond - he has a custom mold for a 1000+ grain full bore 12ga. slug and he has developed loads for it from 2-1/4oz. shot load data plus some that use other powders not normally used for 12ga. that can push that big monster to even higher muzzle velocity while still staying in the 10-K pressure level, he did have some of his loads for that slug pressure tested and posted the data over on the shotgun world forum.

    . . . . it seems to me that in SOME cases one would have to ensure that the gas seal wad you used would be the same as what was used in the published data (for shotgun hulls with tapered inner walls)

    Bill
    Absolutely 100% correct - if you shove a 12ga. Federal brand wad (large diameter stiff wad designed for straight wall hulls) with the petals cut off in a tapered compression formed 2-3/4” Remington hull or worse yet a tapered 2-3/4” Winchester hull and put a big fat full bore slug on top and put in the same powder charge as an equal weight lead shot load that wasn’t designed to take into consideration you have a Federal wad jammed into either a Remington or Winchester 2-3/4” tapered hull its going to be a hot load. Now there are some select few published loads out there that do call for using a 12ga. Federal wad in a Remington or Winchester hull with lead shot. A comparison between these loads and loads that call for using Remington or Winchester wads will show nearly a 20% difference in powder charge weights to produce the same pressure levels. So, yes, you do have to try to match stuff up. Straight wad jammed into tapered hull is one of the biggest potential Bo-Boos.
    Last edited by turbo1889; 01-12-2010 at 02:41 PM.

  8. #68
    Boolit Master

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    One nightmare I heard of from a trusted friend who SAW it was a guy who loaded some balls into 12 guage hulls,,,after they fired about 20 of them the rear sight fell off due to some serious bulging of the shotgun barrel in that area.

    What was amazing was that the guy who did it was not terrible concerned about what happened.....eeekkk .

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  9. #69
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, that sounds interesting (in a scary way). Do you have any info on what exact combination was being used for those ball loads. I'd be really interested to know. Just as much, if not more, can be learned from what doesn't work as what does.

  10. #70
    Boolit Master

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    Not a clue honestly what they used. 12 gauge balls are quite heavy as I recall, and who knows what dia they were, and what load they used.

    Bill
    Both ends WHAT a player

  11. #71
    Boolit Buddy
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    Bill:

    There is no telling what some people will send down a shotgun bore.

    Back when lead shot was still legal for waterfowl I had a customer bring in his Browning A5, complaining about a leading issue near the muzzle.

    After a good cleaning it looked like hell. The outside of the barrel was no longer smooth if you looked close. The surface looked like a plastic bag full of BB's, beginning near the choke (full choke bbl). Damage I had never seen before. The choke measured close to "skeet".

    I asked him what he had been shooting. His "buddy" had some "goose buster loads". I asked him to bring me one. It was a 3" case, loaded with 10, .380 round balls that were cast from straight linotype, or possibly veritype. They weighed less than 76 grains each. Because all of this **** was too much to fit in the case with a star crimp, a card wad was used over the balls & the remaining .150 was filled with paraffin to hold the mess together.

    A powder charge of what appeared to be Herco. Enough of it to be a max load behind 1.5 ounces of shot if it was.

    I can't say for sure that the hard lead balls dented the barrel, but perhaps because they were so hard they might well have as they tried to bypass each other. Or his "buddy" loaded some with steel ball bearings as well. I will never know for sure.

    Decades later I did see old belgian Brownings with the fixed chokes pounded to **** with big steel shot. The damage looked remarkably similar.

    B.

  12. #72
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Bohica2xo, what you’re describing is exactly what first came to mind when I first read Willbird's story about a 12ga. gun getting bulged in the forcing cone area until the rear sight came loose. Single ball loads are pretty simple it takes exceptional stupidity to mess them up. Multi-ball loads (big balls not shot) are a whole different animal. If a ball size is used that is significantly smaller then bore diameter but still more then 1/2 bore size two or more balls can act together like a wedge in the barrel and produce incredible side pressures far beyond anything normally produced in a shotgun load that act not as a fluid mass like loose shot but rather as individual pressure points.

    Personally, I consider there to be a "Dead Man Zone" (ask a helicopter pilot about that term and what it means in his line of work) when loading multi-ball loads such as home-brew Tri-Ball loads with shotguns that includes all ball sizes in the range between balls that are at least 1/2 bore size up to anything smaller then a ball that will fit inside a wad with only a little bit of rattle room. For a 12ga. that includes ball sizes from about from 35-cal to anything less then 60-cal. Get more then one ball in that "Dead Man Zone" rubbing against each other in the same load and you can have a big problem fast.

    A little picture to demonstrate what I'm talking about:



    I've experienced this once myself (that was plenty) and heard of happening to others. Thankfully no damage to the firearm or myself just a very high pressure load that stuck the case in the chamber and took a rod and big hammer to whack out from the muzzle. This is my best guess how it happens the two balls rub against each other and create a pressure point between them and "lock up" or stick to each other as a result. This combined with the chamber pressure acting upwards from below on the lower ball and friction dragging on the upper ball produce a force couple between the two balls acting at their contact point and producing enormous leverage that can potentially cause some very serious problems up to and including bulging a barrel or worse. Obviously this would be especially prone to happening either in the forcing cone or choke due to the funnel like taper of those sections of the barrel. Running the balls inside a wad instead of bare up against the barrel would probably make this less likely to happen but I still wouldn't trust it. I don't use ball sizes in the "Dead Man Size Zone" in multi-ball loads for exactly this reason.

    Granted all this is a little off topic but since we are discussing potential hazards it definitely should be brought up. Balls less then 1/2 bore size and big nearly bore size balls or balls that fit fairly tight inside the wad petals that stay in line single file one right behind the other are both fine but in-between sizes can potentially cause big problems.

  13. #73
    Boolit Mold
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    Yea!I got bit by the .410 slug too,I'am a Machinist also,but the lever-action .410 idea is really cool,always have love the old lever-gun,at any rate it just dawn on me,I'am sure you heard of Moly-Coating, heck you can buy .400 0r maybe .410 handgun bullets with Moly-Coating on them already!Of coarse you might want to drill a small hole in the base to make them front heavy so they fly truer and to make them a little bit lighter maybe about a .312 drill?Now that opens a can of worms!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check