Swaging Die Design -- Do I have this right?

[windrider919]

In you first pictures and drawings you show a 'finned' base wad. It looked pretty neat. And you were planning to attach it by swaging the lead head into it. So, what happened to the finned base? Where did they come from anyway? So later when I saw your picture with the bullet and the conventional card and felt wads I thought that the lead bullet alone was not going to be that accurate. My understanding is that a shotgun slug flies best if it has a 'dart' effect. A heavy nose and a lighter aerodynamic drag inducing tail. If it was me I would go back to having something like you first envisioned. Even the Brenke has that plastic drag skirt on it. But even without your slugs did amazing. Remember, wet newspaper is about 4 times harder than flesh. And based on your penetration and hydrostatic wound channel any one would have taken down a whitetail. In fact, based on my newspaper practice and real world hunting I would say that your slugs would completely penetrate a deer sideways. So I think you should "fin-ish" your slugs and try again.

[turbo1889]

Yes, the fins are going to be attached to a solid slug head. Once I get the die in my own possession including all four punches the finned slugs are going to be constructed and tested. A full report will be posted. At this time the fins are being custom cut one at a time on a rapid prototype machine from plastic stock. Thus their numbers are few - what fins I have left from the last batch are being saved until I have good heads to go with them. They are indeed the ultimate end of this project. Over the course of over three years of experimenting with 410 slugs I have come to the conclusion that a 1/2oz. slug for a 3"-mag 410 load with a muzzle velocity of at least a 1,500-fps represents the ultimate fire-power capable of being delivered from a stock 410 gun. A solid head from this swage die with the plastic fin attached to the base will hopefully be the ultimate realization of that potential. I'm working on it and that is the ultimate goal -- I just figured that not everyone is interested in that particular set up and a swage die with multiple punches can produce a variety of different slug styles from the same die so why not make it as versatile as possible?

Updates will continue to be posted in this thread as I test each variation possible to produce with the die. It has been fully completed including all four punches (previously only punch #1 had been completed) by the machinist and I should be punching them out myself shortly.

The first order of business once I receive the die and start swaging them myself is to punch out a hundred each or so of the #1's and #2's for the first shipment to McBirch. Then I will proceed to testing the #3 and #4 style followed by a second shipping of those style to McBirch if all goes well in my tests. He is the one by the way who machined the finned tails for me.

[barryjyoung]

[QUOTE=turbo1889;555029]

Obviously community college trade school machinist need projects in order to complete their classes and graduate, not all of these projects are mundane book assigned projects some are "figure it out yourself" and "good project + good work = good grade" type assignments. Thus getting it done that way would have been very economical. Basically materials cost plus a little for time and labor, would have probably made out at less than a Ben Franklin -- but of course the workmanship was a gamble. Turn around wasn't bad either - school projects have deadlines that must be met.
[QUOTE]


This is why we have a non-stop parade of people dragging in their "terrific project for your students" . Because of just such uninformed nonsense. We do not assign "mundane book assigned projects". The project assignments our students are given have been designed to expose them to as many manufacturing techniques as possible. It has taken more than 20 years to fine tune our projects to make the education of the student broad and deep. The last thing I want to see is a Machine Technology student waste his or her valuable time putzing with some lame project that walks in off the street just so some body can "make out at less than a Ben Franklin". It is amazing to me that you would not want to make a generous donation to your community college for doing you a favor instead of bragging about how you took advantage of them. As to workmanship, we hold our students to a much higher standard than they will be required to work to in industry. We are teaching craftsmanship, not how to make shoddy junk.

And people wonder why we don't take on outside projects. This is precisely why.

Barry Young
Machinist Instructor

[Sixgun Symphony]

College president is a liberal b*tch from the Left Coast who has filled the admin department with her cronies. Professors/Instructors in the Trades Department, Math Department, Science Department, and Business Skills Department generally don't like her and butt heads with her. Language, Literature, and Art Departments generally like her. Basically all the people involved in the worth while stuff that you can actually make a living with vs. the junk no average person is going to make a living at. Guys in the Trade Department didn't have a problem with it at all and eveything would have probably gone fine if the admin department hadn't got wind of it.

I guess it will be a long time, if ever, before they start a gunsmithing program.

[turbo1889]

Must have hit a tender spot with you, barryjyoung. Well first off I do not deny that I am a little on the cheap side -- I've got a limited budget and lots of projects. I don't apologize for that but I don't deny it either.

In my defense:

- As far as "mundane book assigned projects" I'm absolutely sure that from an instructors point of view no project assigned would ever fall into such a category. From a students point of view - - - - - I think you get the drift. Several of the classes I took were also classes some of the tech guys took. Got to know a few of them and can definitely say that some assigned projects were looked at as such. Do I know for a fact that they did get assignments that involved projects of their own choosing at times including some outside projects? Yes. Did they prefer them? - mixed feelings is generally what I saw, some loved it, others found such assignment stressful and annoying – I gather you would fall into the latter category. Sounds like in your program everything is lined out, and as you say you've had 20-years to build that program. Does this mean that all such programs are run like yours – from what I have seen locally, I don’t think so, but then it’s not like I’ve never been wrong.

- Have I had any other project completed in this manner before, or has anyone else? Yes, for example one of the earliest projects was an engine part that was no longer made. I paid for all materials plus some cash for the student who did it for me, and the student did get academic credit for it. As far as I know he didn't think I was jipping him, we are still friendly acquaintances, though distant (no longer both in school together). If he had a problem with it, I have no doubt he would let me know in no uncertain terms, he is with verbal words how you seem to be with written words - to the point. I know of at least one other project that someone else got done in a similar manner, and no it wasn't my friend who did that one too. Seems you guys don't do projects from outside and you are happy about that policy.

- Expect the same or better quality of work from a student as from an experienced seasoned machinist? Not insulting students work in any way, but I don't follow on that one. Not saying they make junk - far from it, wouldn't have tried to get my project done that way if that's how I felt, but last I checked a seasoned and experienced individual in any trade or profession is expected to produce a quality of work above and beyond what is expected of a student.

- As I have previously stated, to my knowledge I haven’t taken advantage of someone; nor would I brag about such a thing. Just trying to get stuff done, and yes - your right - get it done cheaply. No one was forced to do any project I've had done at the college shop, I asked nicely. Have I been told I'm nuts on some projects - Yes. Did they do those ones - No. If it disturbs you that somewhere some students have been wasting their time "putzing" for me and may be doing so again for future non-firearm related projects, I'm sorry that it disturbs you but it won’t prevent me from continuing, my conscience is clean on the matter.



I have no hard feelings towards you, the title of this thread is indeed an open invitation for people to state their comments, opinions, and suggestions about my project. You have done so, and unlike some others do left no room for miscommunication. That is a trait I appreciate. I just thought I should state my position clearly, just as you have stated yours. Accusations left unanswered, can be interpreted as admission of wrong doing and a guilty conscience. I have done my best to both civil and clear and do admit they you have a point about me being cheap – I will pay full price when necessary but if I can find away around doing so while still being fair I will.

[barryjyoung]

Must have hit a tender spot with you, barryjyoung. Well first off I do not deny that I am a little on the cheap side -- .

Hey Turbo:

Yeah, pretty much had my ducks all in a row then wham! That really smarted. I over-reacted as I often do and went off. Sorry about that.

There is nothing at all wrong with being cheap. Surely you are no cheaper than I am. That would take serious dedication.

Your answer was so right in so many ways. Not every program is as well constructed as ours. Some probably do need projects to walk in off the street. Before my co-instuctor designed our current program that is all the students at our college did. They had no set of designed projects at all. Some schools still operate that way.

I forgot to tell you good job on the project this thread is about. Thanks for posting it.

Barry

[deltaenterprizes]

My class had set projects and would also take in some repair or custom projects. If a student felt he was capable and wanted the challenge it was allowed but there was no recource if things did not work out. Most students had enough of their own that they wanted to do after learning the basics that they were always kept busy beyond the regular course work and really did not have time to do outside work.
The benefit of repair projects that walk in the door is that like in a real shop it has to be done right the first time so you have to stop and think how to hold it with out damaging the part first since you are not using raw materials and if you screw up you just make another one.
This is how it is in a job shop and since most manufacturing is being done with CNC and overseas, mainly in China, the few machine shops left are doing repair work.
My boss always told me "They only come here when they can't buy a part and it costs too much to replace the machine!"
CNC work a monkey can do and now with parts feeders you don't need the monkey anymore! One programmer can handle 10 machines, and the computer can tell you the speeds and feeds and shows errors in the program.With CAD/CAM it takes the drawing and converts it to code for the CNC.
But try to do repair work on a CNC!

[barryjyoung]

When CNC machines were new the salesmen said things like "A monkey can run it". This sold many CNC machines to shop owners too busy to research the facts. In reality, the concepts required to understand how to program and run CNC machines are much more involved than conventional machines. Still these myths persist.

If the work is simple one programmer can handle 10 machines. If the work is complex keeping one going can be a challenge, especially with the current practice of short runs. The computer does not tell you the speeds and feeds. these come from parameters set by the programmer. Using Vericut software potential crashes can be identified, this you got right. That does not mean it is easy.

CAD and CAM applications do not take a drawing and convert it to EIA code that the machine understands without a lot of intense interaction between the programmer and the initial dataset submitted by the customer.

I have personally done a lot of repair work on CNC machines. CNC machines are the very best at doing conventional machine work. The only reason shops even have conventional machines any more at all is because they are cheap. A 5 axis CNC milling machine can do anything a Bridgeport can do, the opposite is not true.

I do not know why people continue to support these myths. The only thing I can come up with is that they do not know how to use CNC equipment so they compensate in this way. Is there another reason?

Barry

CNC work a monkey can do and now with parts feeders you don't need the monkey anymore! One programmer can handle 10 machines, and the computer can tell you the speeds and feeds and shows errors in the program.With CAD/CAM it takes the drawing and converts it to code for the CNC.
But try to do repair work on a CNC!

[deltaenterprizes]

My friend I worked for a couple of years has his wife and higk school kid running his machines like I did.
Put in a blank,push a button, take out finished part, repeat,repeat .....................................
Boring.

[barryjyoung]

My friend I worked for a couple of years has his wife and higk school kid running his machines like I did.
Put in a blank,push a button, take out finished part, repeat,repeat .....................................
Boring.

Oh, OK. Thank you. Now I understand.

Barry

[turbo1889]

In Possession of Finished Swage Die:

[turbo1889]

Initial Test Slugs Swaged / How to Use Die, Learning Curve Completed:






Pictures above, slugs produced by #1 through #4 punches from left to right respectively.

I swaged up a dozen or so of each style using some pure lead 32-cal balls I had a bunch of and no longer had the BP Cap & Ball revolver to shoot them with. The only problem I ran into with doing this was that using several of those balls to make a slug results in a slug that has weak points where it can fracture because the separate metal balls don't fully mix with each other in the swaging process. I dug up a 158gr. 357-cal SWC mold I had and cast a couple dozen with pure lead and then went back to swaging using those as my plugs for making the #2 style slugs - worked great and made some tough good slugs with only a very slight week point where the lube grooves were.

So long story short I didn't get several hundred done like I was originally planning to use up all those 32-cal balls but I have figured out exactly what method I need to use to produce good slugs from the die, namely pre-cast to a specific weight pure lead cores.

My initial experimentation allowed me to figure out the exact target weights of the different slug styles produced by the various punches, the initial attempts using the balls worked just fine for figuring that out. I was able to make a slightly shorter version of the #1 slug that came out just right at about 125gr. to 130gr. A full length #2 slug worked out at a little more than 160gr. and the #3 & #4 styles come out at 180gr. of lead plus the weight of the screw and the respective tails. So I ordered three different Lee molds, a 6-cavity TL356-124-2R mold, a 6-cavity TL358-158-SWC mold, and a 6-cavity TL401-175-SWC mold. These molds when cast with pure lead should make cores that are perfect for the #1, #2, and #3 & #4 styles respectively. And when I cast with WW they should give me some very nice pistol bullets for 9mm, 38-spl & .357-mag, and 10mm respectively. I already have molds for those but these would be different styles. All of the molds I intend to use for cores were deliberately chosen because they are Lee tumble lube style with gentle ripples in the side instead of deep lube grooves which should make for the best fill out without any weak points where fracture can occur under the stress of impact when swaged into slugs.

The slugs in the picture above were made from cut and trimmed to exact weight 5/16 lead wire. That took a lot of time and waste to get plugs of one continuous piece of lead from lead wire - did it for the photo and for a batch of test slugs but don't want to do it forever. I can hardly wait for the molds to get here so I can get into mass production mode !!!!




First #3 and #4 Slugs Assembled:



I assembled one each of the #3 and #4 solid head slugs. Both weigh just a tiny smidgen under a full 1/2-oz. Now these should pack a heck of a lot of knockdown compared to regular factory slugs. I'm hoping for at least 50% more penetration with those in wet newspaper compared to my initial tests.

[turbo1889]

Semi-Mass Production begins:














Did up several hundred 170 grain ones (approx 3/8-oz.) using the #2 plug and castings made from my 358-cal 158gr. SWC mold. Cast using pure lead of course and the plugs came out at a measured weight of just at or a little over the 170gr. mark. My Lee six banger molds I ordered for this purpose still haven’t shown up (probably the last time I order from the Lee factory direct online store) so the only good plug mold I have right now is that one. This is why I have just been making these #2 foster style slugs up in mass production mode and not the other sizes too.

Effort required to swage them with complete fill out and apply enough pressure so that the excess lead starts to squirt back down around the swage punch in very thin fins is about the same as it takes to full length resize 375-H&H brass in my Lee Classic Cast Single Stage Press. I set the die up so that the press ram stop was just a teensy bit more than the full fill out point for the lightest cores (cores varied a few grains) and thus when I push it all the way to the press arm stop point and then trim the little bit of fining on the bases with a pen knife I end up with slugs that are very consistently within a grain or less for weight variance - very nice and precise !!!

So I used up the first hundred batch fooling around with various methods of loading the slugs. So far I have developed the following two methods with good results:

1 - ''Remington'' Load Method:

Take a 2-1/2" hull. Put in a standard 1/2-oz shot load powder charge from a book load. Take a standard shot load plastic wad and snip off the front half of the petals. Fill up the empty space with just enough shot buffer and then load the slug and crimp.



Seems to work fine - that extra buffer seems to bring the pressure of the load up to 1/2-oz. payload levels even though it's only a 3/8-oz. slug. Not the most powerful load but pretty quick and easy to make without having to use up nitro and felt wads (scarce or special order items usually).

2 - "Nitro & Waxed Felt'' Load Method:

Take either a 2-1/2" or 3" hull. Put in a stout powder charge of about 150% (maximum worked up to from about 120% start point) of what the average book load is for shot load of a powder that is commonly used to load 410 shot loads (Lil-Gun, 2400, etc). Cap off the powder charge with off with a gas seal made from a 410 plastic shot wad with the petals cut off, followed by a single 1/8 nitro card. For a 2-1/2" load this is followed by a 1/4" waxed felt wad (cut a 1/2" one in half with a razor). For a 3" load a 1/4" and 1/2" waxed felt wad are used. One more 1/8 nitro card is pressed into place over the felt and then the slug is flipped upside down and the hollow base filled up like a cup to slightly heaping with shot buffer the hull is then held upside down and the slug with it's base filled up with buffer pushed up into the hull with finger pressure until tight. The whole thing is then put back right side up and the whole load compressed with a pencil with the erasure side down on the slug nose with firm double hand pressure and then crimped.




These are the most powerful loads I have been able to build to date with these slugs. The plastic gas seal so set up takes up only about 1/8" of wad column height and is effective. The two nitro cards stiffen up the load in key areas of the wad column and the waxed felt wads serve three purposes. They are a very effective secondary gas seal, they serve as a crush section in the wad column allowing for slightly more powder in the load without increasing pressures compared to a completely nitro card wad column, and last but not least they lube the barrel for the next slug and keep leading and fouling down to a minimum. Filling the slug base with a heaping amount of shot buffer keeps the wad column from sticking to the slug and coming loose at random down range distances causing horizontal stringing - a problem I encountered in my first few loadings.

As you can probably see in the photos, I made up some slugs that have had their hollow base filled up with hot glue. I have not tried loads using them yet. The basic idea is to eliminate the whole upside down insertion of the slug involved with the buffer fill method and also to hopefully hold the slug together better on impact making for deeper penetration and better mass conservation on impact. A very small pinch of buffer is still going to be necessary before inserting the slug to make about a millimeter thick layer of buffer between the bottom of the slug and the nitro card underneath it but the whole upside down acrobat step is eliminated.

I do believe that an even more powerful loading is possible if I use a charge of Reloader-7 powder as the propellant which could possibly allow me to drive these 3/8-oz foster style slugs all the way up to a muzzle velocity in the 1,700~1,800-fps range while still staying with safe pressure levels. After I finish my testing with the hot glue filled base method that is the next thing I intend to start working on.

[deltaenterprizes]

Fantastic article! I was wondering if you ever got anywhere with your project.

[scrapcan]

well done, now the fun begins for you. Would swaged cores help in your project? I still owe a PIF and could put some 326, 355, 430, 45 cal swaged uniform cores of your weight choice in a bag and send them out. I have several top and base punches for corbin lswc type dies that will make a core that might work for you. If interested send a pm.

[chrismetallica1]

Very nice setup. If you dont mind me askign how much did this cost you to get made? I live in the UK and shoot .410 slug . However slug rounds cost a small fortune and Im yet to find anyone who makes a mould for them. I think sawging them is probably the best option.

[turbo1889]

Don't worry - I am well aware of the plight of my fellows across the pond who unlike my ancestors theirs didn't rise up against the king and his cronies when they had the chance. I am aware that the aristocrats are still up to their old tricks and trying to disarm the peasant population.

Once I get done revising the Blue-Prints for the swage die so that they show it "as cut" rather than originally designed (as cut is proven to work). I intend to send a copy to the fourten.org.uk message board for public posting in downloadable format. Then you guys over there will just need to find a machinist of capable skill and have your own dies made up and you can engage in that ultra dangerous and hazardous to public safety underground munitions manufacturing problem all you want.

Heck I might even make the bottom rung of some obscure list in the MI-6 files for my trouble. Something I would consider an honor, if it's for providing "Treacherous & Revolutionary" information and know-how to her majesties subjects.









In all seriousness - I do intend to post my updated Blue Prints on a few UK sites for you guys over there.

[chrismetallica1]

turbo1889,
Thanks for the info. I will keep an eye out of the fourten forum. There a quite a few little machine shops round hear. Im sure I could have some made.

Let me know when you post them and I will download a set

[chrismetallica1]

Any news. Have you posted the plans online or are you still workign on it?

All the best

Chris

[MightyThor]

AAGHHHHH I want em I want em I want em I want em I want em. well, almost got that out of my system.

Too bad I been looking at that Taurus that shoots 45 and 410 shells in the same gun. Now I gotta get the gun and then the slugs.