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Thread: Swaging Die Design -- Do I have this right?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master


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    My machine shop teacher built rifles and made and installed muzzle brakes during class. He is the one that taught me how to headspace a bolt action in school during class!
    I drilled and tapped the action for a scope base there and drilled and tapped a black powder rifle for a red dot scope there too!

  2. #22
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooterg View Post
    I'm still in shock that the Community College in MONTANA has that attitude . Lotsa "propulsion system" parts made at our local community college shop. Helped that the head man collected old Colts and the second guy shot high power !
    College president is a liberal b*tch from the Left Coast who has filled the admin department with her cronies. Professors/Instructors in the Trades Department, Math Department, Science Department, and Business Skills Department generally don't like her and butt heads with her. Language, Literature, and Art Departments generally like her. Basically all the people involved in the worth while stuff that you can actually make a living with vs. the junk no average person is going to make a living at. Guys in the Trade Department didn't have a problem with it at all and eveything would have probably gone fine if the admin department hadn't got wind of it.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Turbo:

    Your first design with the "fingers" on the insert will have a life measured in single digts of slugs.

    Your second design has what appear to be .0625 holes, drilled about 10 diameters deep? Good luck with that.

    The finish within a straight die is critical, especially when it comes to ejecting the finished part.

    I would strongly recomend that you design the splined area within your die to include a slight taper, and seek a qualified wire EDM shop to form that section of the die.

    Swaging the finished part around a feature on the base wad is a good plan, if you want that part to carry all the way to the target. A screw will work too, just be sure to swage the proper core hole in the slug while forming it.

    B.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    bohica2xo, I appreciate the input. You are absolutely correct about my first design with the "fingers" to form the rifling grooves. That is why I abandonded that and started trying to figure out how to do it in one peice of metal. The drilling a pattern of small holes first and then drilling the big center hole method does work but it does make for a pretty rough cut that doesn't hold tolerance to bore size. I believe this is what you were trying to say about the depth of drill hole compared to the diameter. I did some research on the wire EDM manufacturing method and I agree that it probably would be an excellent way to make this part. I have, however, through this forum made contact with a machinist who says he can do it by cutting the Major and Minor bores first and then using some sort of jib and a 1/16" square broach to cut the rifling grooves. Looks like he has got it and the final particulars including initial down-payment for the work is in progress.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Update #2:

    Through my corospondence back and forth with a machinist who is willing to build the die and cut the rifling part via. a method I hadn't though of several changes have been made to the die design. Thought I'd post the updated prints here, also bigger type fonts -- He didn't like my little itty bitty stuff one little bit. Can't say I blame him it was pretty small.














  6. #26
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Update #3:

    The exact specifications of the die have changed slightly during machining but the slug profile it is designed to produce has remained the same. The die is a hair width from being fully complete with just the other three swage punch tips left to finish. Initial testing done with 5/16 lead wire has produced some very nice test slugs.


  7. #27
    Boolit Master

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    Looks like you are comin along just fine in the die build. Now we get to see the real results in how it shoots.

    How was the price on the project? Is he interested in making regular swage dies for jacketed bullets?
    Last edited by scrapcan; 06-01-2009 at 10:17 AM.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manleyjt View Post
    How was the price on the project? Is he interested in making regular swage dies for jacketed bullets?
    As far as price goes, I'm not releasing the exact figure, but my original estimate for a private machinist was about what I ended up paying:

    Quote Originally Posted by turbo1889 View Post
    Well letís put it this way:

    - - - Standard CH/4D 105 Swag Die = $71.71
    - - - Standard CH/4D 101 Swag 2 Die Sets = $129.11
    - - - Custom CH/4D 101 Swag Dies = $215.19
    - - - Standard Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = $447.00
    - - - Custom Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = ???

    . . . With a private machinist who has the necessary equipment and skill, . . . I think I might be able to get away with a custom built die at about the price of Corbin "R"-Series set. . .
    Considering tha amount of work he has put into the project, I think I'm getting a very good deal. He has stated that he has no intentions of becoming a swaging die maker in general, but will consider small machining projects in general for person to person transaction on a case by case basis. For those who are willing to pay what it takes and not just looking for a cheap cop out price. That's putting a few words in his mouth on my part and is a pretty rough paraphrase - but I think it gets the point across he wants to make. He had done right by me so far but it is also true I think that the project ended up being more time intensive they he figured.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Well initial test slugs made with punch #1 the lightest of the slugs showed up. The initial samples weighed in at between 140 & 150 grains so they are heavier than any factory 410 slug and as I said they are the lightest ones to be produced by the swage die. Only five of them but I loaded them up and put them through their paces -- looking good !








  10. #30
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Then it was off to the woods to test them in a live fire situation. First I made up a target beefy enough to capture the slugs and test their toughness and terminal performance. Didn't quite have enough newspaper to fill the whole box so I used a box of damp dirt without rocks to fill up the last third or so. The paper plate stapled to the front had a "+" marked on it with a black permanent marker for an aiming point:



    Then I set it up my target box fifty plus yards down range (it's the white spec in the distance) on a kelly-humped forest service road with a nice hill in the background for a back stop and set up a shooting rest on the kelly-hump:



    Only had five loads total so I fired the first two with just the thread protector nut on my Saiga-410 to test accuracy and performance from a true cylinder bore:



    Then I put on the full choke constrictor and fired my remaining three loads:



    Not too bad, for this gun and this range. Better than Winchester and Federal factory loads. Equal to Remington and Gold/Silver Bear factory loads. Not as good as Brenneke factory loads. As you can see cylinder bore vs. full choke makes a difference in point of impact with this gun. Cylinder bore hits just slightly to the right and with the choke constrictor on hits slightly left. This is a known issue with this gun it does the same thing with factory loads. There is quite a bit of vertical stringing evident. I believe this is due to two factors, first the test slugs did vary in both weight and fill out which made them less than uniform compared to each other -- practice, and using cast cores instead of trying to cut lead wire to exactly the same length to get the same weight, I believe will make for more uniform slugs produced from the swage die. Secondly the load used was a light load well below maximum pressure and thus powder burn might have been lest than ideal. I believe this is strongly evidenced by the fact that the heaviest slug hit the highest. There was one slug that was like 8 grains heavier then all the rest -- it had the highest impact point. This is exactly the opposite of what one would normally think until one takes into consideration that a heavier slug makes for more chamber pressure with the same powder charge and wad column and thus better powder burn.

    And of course operator error also needs to be taken into account as well -- it's hard to concentrate on making nice steady shots that will be meaningful for test data when your being eaten alive by a swarm of mosquitoes !
    Last edited by turbo1889; 06-01-2009 at 03:11 AM.

  11. #31
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    Great job. I'm going to have to read the thread all over again. Nice job posting all the pics and plans. Glad to see the results were positive. 50 yrds in a pole thicket was good shooting. I would have been happy with the results. I fired my first custom made bullets from only ten feet or so and probably would have missed that 50 yrd target all together.

    So what does the recover bullet look like?
    When you stop learning you are dying.

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  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    That's a nice looking slug!

    I'm curious about the recovered projectiles as well. Will you be sharing photos?
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Upon Dissecting the target box I found that the heaviest slug that had hit the highest had just passed an inch or so above the packing material intended to test the slugs terminal performance and continued on it's way down range. Thus only four of the five slugs were recovered:



    The slug that penetrated the furthest traveled through the entire length of the first bunk of wet newspaper and penetrated a few layers deep into the second bunk. It expanded to approximately 0.7" and was the deepest penetrator. The slug held together and weight retention was almost 100% loosing only a few grains weight:







    One of the three slugs that were found inside the first bunk of wet newspaper broke up into two pieces, an outer ring and an inner core. It's penetration was the least of all four slugs but it still passed through almost the entirety of the first bunk of wet news-paper. Weight retention was aprox. 96% for that slug -- there were a few grains missing. Assumably there were a few lead fragments along the wound channel. I only weighed the two large chunks and didn't search the wound channel for any small fragments:





    The other two slugs penetrated the entire length of the first bunk of wet newspaper and were found logged on the inside of the last layer of newspaper on the stack. Due to the fact that these two slugs bulged that last layer of newspaper out on the back side but did not punch through it is theorized that the plastic bags I wrapped the bunks in acted like a stretchy tough membrane and they just didn't have enough energy left to punch through. It was kind of like finding your bullet just under the hide on the opposite side of a deer. Both of these slugs held together and expanded to aprox 0.8" and weight retention like the one that expanded slightly less and penetrated slightly deeper was nearly 100%. Sorry about the picture quality on these last three photos the digital camera was blinking low battery by the time these photos were taken and thus their quality is extremely diminished:





    Last edited by turbo1889; 06-01-2009 at 10:50 AM.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    After I packed up and returned home, I got a few close up shots of the recovered slugs with fresh batteries in the camera:




  15. #35
    Boolit Master

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    nice going. I think you are on a good path with your project. Thanks for sharing. And thanks for relaying the machinists viewpoint. I have an old SAS press that needs a set of dies and will send you a pm.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master
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    That looks like pretty good expansion! the 3 that stayed together kinda look to me like they're thinking about separating, but it's hard to tell from photos. what's your impression of the integrity of the slugs?
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  17. #37
    Boolit Master


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    Thanks for posting your progress and posting pics of the progress!

  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Turbo:

    Congratulations on a sucessful die - both design & execution.

    I would have used a wire, but the broach is just fine if you take your time. Same result, just different paths.

    The slugs seem to perform well. What sort of load development are you using? I recall the .410 being a bit touchy with some powders... 4756 led to blown primers on a warm afternoon.

    Nice job.

    B.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    As for the slugs structural integrity -- yes push those up to a maximum load and they would all break up and not hold together when punching through a tough target. That is the whole idea of swage punch #2 versus the #1 punch these slugs were made with. The shallower hollow base doesn't add much more weight only a mere 15-20 grains but it increases the structural integrity of the nose of the slug by over 50% for more penetration, less expansion, and an altogether tougher slug. And of course the solid #3 & #4 slugs should be tougher still.

    Now as far as the load, that was 20.0gr. of Lil-Gun on those loads. A charge, which actually makes for a medium strength load with this weight of slug and wad-column set up. I've take the powder charge with that particular powder significantly hotter while shooting 1/4oz. solid WW-alloy 0.412" diameter round ball slugs with a similar wad column set-up. Now you can make so real scorcher loads if you use a heavy charge of Reloader-7 and still stay within pressure limits. Those 1/4oz. factory slugs at 1,800 fps. don't hold a prayer up against one of those R-7 hand loads. You can make a significantly heavier slug go down range a little faster !!!! Loud as heck though with a lot of muzzle flash; a lot of the powder is still burning when the slug leaves the muzzle.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Now that it quit raining and the sun finally came out I laid out the bunks of wet newspaper to dry in the sun so that they could be used for fire starter during the winter (waste not - want not, that was a lot of newspaper). After being fully disassembled and laid out the hydraulic shock damage is clearly evident in the test medium. The holes punched through are larger then the max expanded diameter of the slugs and the hydraulic shock wave cone is also clearly viewable. So I though I'd post a few pictures. Here is the first bunk all laid out with the upper left being the back of the bunk and the lower right being the front of the bunk (started disassembling the bunk from the back and laid it out just like a person writes from left to right and top to bottom. The forward bunk is laid out above on the roof:



    This is a close up of the shock cavity damage at about 1+ inches deep:



    And this is at about 2+ inches deep, from there the wound channel started to decrease in size:




    Also, forgot to mention this earlier. The bunks of wet newspaper were 6 inches thick -- that's my standard thickness when I do these type of tests. Usually most pistol rounds (with a few notable exceptions like the 7.62x25) will only penetrate the first bunk. Rifle and slug (larger gauges) round usually end up in at least the second or further bunk. Long story short this slug out of a 410-bore holds its own as far as penetration and wound channel with most pistol rounds I've ever tested. Looks similar to a medium/heavy, but not totally maxed out, 44-mag soft lead nose (two alloy cast) cast bullet designed to mushroom, wound channel to me. That's the closest pistol load I've tested so far, except for maybe those 45-Colt SWC loads but they didn't go as deep. McBirch on his web-site reviews/tests (http://mcb-homis.com/) was getting the same penetration depth with the best penetrating factory slug load, the Brenneke, in bunks of wet paper. Long story short looks like the lightest slug produced by this swage die in a load that's not maxed out can hold it's own with the best performing factory load available. I'm hoping for performance above and beyond this with the heavier weight slugs especially the solid ones from this die when loaded to max.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check