Swaging Die Design -- Do I have this right?

[turbo1889]

Okay -- long story short. I like 410 slugs and am like addicted to them and have a personal ongoing quest for the last few years to develop the ultimate 410 slug load. As of current this is where my current slug development has led me:



Left Side is the best factory slug load for the 410 available -- Brenneke attached base wad 110 grain-ish rifled. The other two are my prototypes in 1/2oz. and 11/16oz. weights. 1/2oz. works good and can be pushed to 1,500-fps out of a 3" hull while still staying within safe pressure limits making it a heck of a load but the 11/16oz. turned out to print nothing but key-holes out of a smooth bore. These are the penetrator versions -- Hardball alloy about 16-BHN will punch straight through and are fully capable of crushing bone. That design application has not yet been fully completed due to the fact that I'm waiting for a custom cut mold to arrive -- lead heads for initial test prototypes were made with a much slower process.

So while I'm waiting for the mold to get done I've been exploring the next stage a soft lead swaged head with rifling for applications where expansion is desired. The only practical way to produce such a head is via swaging rather then casting. So I'm going to try to get one of the machinist students at the local community college to make a project out of it. This is my basic design principle so far -- haven’t sat down and actual starting doing dimensioning of the components yet but I need some heads up on whether I've got the idea right or not. Basically the head is modeled after the Brenneke only with straight rifling. The bottom of the slug is flared so that when the plastic tail unit is inserted along with a drop of glue and the whole unit popped through a Lee 0.411" sizing die it will basically flatten out the flair and in the process crimp the slug head onto the tail. Intended alloy is pure lead or soft alloy not of 30:1 or less.

So anyway enough blabber, here are the drawings:





Thoughts? Pointers? Voices of experience?

[deltaenterprizes]

Nice drawings but rifling a slug does nothing but look impressive. With a bullet the rifling is engraved onto the bullet,that is why they make rifled shotgun barrels. If rifled slugs worked there would be no need for them. A rifled choke works well also.

[turbo1889]

Nice drawings but rifling a slug does nothing but look impressive. With a bullet the rifling is engraved onto the bullet,that is why they make rifled shotgun barrels. If rifled slugs worked there would be no need for them. A rifled choke works well also.

Yes, I am well aware of the fact that engraving rifling into a slug does not make it spin in flight -- this is why I simplified the design by using straight rifling instead. This rifling does, however, serve a very important purpose which is far more important then looking impressive, in that it allows a solid slug be made full bore diameter for maximum accuracy and still be safely fired in a choked gun because the thin rifling ridges just flatten out with the slug hits the choke when used in a choked gun. Longitudinal rifling serves this purpose better then lead body bands and works with swaging while body bands work with molding. My hard lead noses use a plastic forward ring to perform the same function and the hard cast lead heads are only 0.370"-0.375" diameter to clear even the tightest chokes without damage.

[Buckshot]

.............turbo1889, nice drawings. That's basicly it. I would think about altering the base punch shape a bit, taking into consideraton the amount of displaced lead to be formed by the skirt compression when attaching to the wad. Of course that assumes you didn't show it in the drawing for simplicities sake?

...............Buckshot

[badgeredd]

turbo1889,

Neat project!!!!! I am curious about the 1/2 oz. slug. I was thinking that a half ounce at 1500 fps would be pretty close to a 41 mag energy levels, actually a bit more. I've never been very fond of slugs and shot guns but this definitely intrigues me.

Could you share some more info and accuracy data? Just curious about it.

Thanks,

Edd

[BrentD]

I hope your .410s are hell for stout!

Brent

[MIBULLETS]

Looks good to me. I have always heard of people saying that the 410 slugs just are not big enough for deer, but it looks like your soft lead one in enough weight would be awesome for that purpose. The die design looks pretty standard so I don't see why it wouldn't work. Do you plan to run them through a sizer or something to crimp your base wad on? Do you plan to make the wads too or are you buying them?

[MIBULLETS]

One more thought. It looks like your external punch is made for a reloading press? It may take a fair amount of pressure to form the rifling or fins on the slug. Just make sure the press can take it.

[Heavy lead]

Would not this be the cat's meow for a 9410 or the 336 410 lever gun?

[badgeredd]

Would not this be the cat's meow for a 9410 or the 336 410 lever gun?

I think it could be a pretty neat thing in our government mandated limited firearm area. BTW, did you know Indiana now allows rifles that use certain specified handgun cartridges? On the list is 454 Casull. Definite a thumper out of any gun, but out of a rifle it has to approach a 30-30 for energy, maybe surpase it!

Edd

[turbo1889]

Update:

Well as I stated earlier in the thread, I originally was going to have the custom swag die made by a local trade school machine shop. I drew up semi-professional looking blue-prints accordingly complete with final dimensions, tolerances, and specified materials. They were taylored towards what one would expect for a trade school student - construction was bulky and simple with tolerances as generous as possible, and only holding them tight where it was an absolute necessity with no extra frills. This fell through, however, when the admin department of the community college got wind of the project, and absolutely forbid any project remotely connected to guns or weapons to be done in their machine shop.

Figured I'd post what I came up with here and hope someone can direct me to a private machinist with both a lathe and mill set up or precision drill press and jig set up. Have been making commercial inquiries with out fits such as CH/4D but so far comming up a little short for actually getting it made. Anyway enough blabber here are the prints in reduced resolution:

[deltaenterprizes]

How much money do you expect to pay for this?

[Sixgun Symphony]

I would call around the local gunsmiths to see if one will take the job.

[deltaenterprizes]

Gunsmiths are not machinists! Some machinists are gunsmiths.

[turbo1889]

How much money do you expect to pay for this?

Well let’s put it this way:

- - - Standard CH/4D 105 Swag Die = $71.71
- - - Standard CH/4D 101 Swag 2 Die Sets = $129.11
- - - Custom CH/4D 101 Swag Dies = $215.19
- - - Standard Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = $447.00
- - - Custom Corbin "R"-Series 2 Die Swag Sets = ???

Obviously community college trade school machinist need projects in order to complete their classes and graduate, not all of these projects are mundane book assigned projects some are "figure it out yourself" and "good project + good work = good grade" type assignments. Thus getting it done that way would have been very economical. Basically materials cost plus a little for time and labor, would have probably made out at less than a Ben Franklin -- but of course the workmanship was a gamble. Turn around wasn't bad either - school projects have deadlines that must be met.

For getting it done commercially by a corporation I’d be lucky to pull less than a grand for cost especially if you run into a situation where using precision drilling to form the micro rifling portion of the die is not something they are willing to do as was originally planned and they want to use a much more expensive method that involves having a custom cutter made up before you even get to the custom die cutting part. With a private machinist who has the necessary equipment and skill, and is willing to use precision drilling to form the rifling portion I think I might be able to get away with a custom built die at about the price of Corbin "R"-Series set. Of course the more economical the better, but I do want it pretty bad.

[deltaenterprizes]

A low ball price for a compent machine shop is at least $40/hr, each number to the right of the decimal point increases the time need to make the part. Factories are tooled up to do repeat operations that cuts down on set up time, your estimate is about half what a commercial shop would charge considering a decent machinist is paid $25/hr and the owner gharges at least 3 times that. I would like to look at better copies of your drawings.

[dakotashooter2]

This fell through, however, when the admin department of the community college got wind of the project, and absolutely forbid any project remotely connected to guns or weapons to be done in their machine shop.

Weapons??? What weapons?? That is tooling for a solid fuel propulsion system!!!!

[StarMetal]

Have you thought of Buckshot making them? I believe he's very capable.

Joe

[shooterg]

I'm still in shock that the Community College in MONTANA has that attitude . Lotsa "propulsion system" parts made at our local community college shop. Helped that the head man collected old Colts and the second guy shot high power !

[scrapcan]

Hell, he is lucky in Montana as our local community college welding/fabrication/machine tool program was scrapped and rebuilt into an excercise facility. Same goes for the indoor shooting range that once had a great program for college students.