Need for core swaging die?

[beeser]

I just started swaging and use cast cores to start the process. Some of the cores vary a little in weight and as a result affect the finished swaged bullet. Some end up lighter in weight and are easier to swage. Some also end up being better formed than others. Would a core swaging die improve consistency.

[MUSTANG]

Yes. Dramatically so. I swage both .224 and .308's. Using the core swage dies (Corbins for me) such as for .224, I am able to get cores of 45 to 70 grains that will range + or - 0.3 Grains (say 49.9 to 50.1 Grains). When I "Double Swage" the cores by swaging a core, turning it over, then swaging the same core at the same setting once again, I am able to significantly reduce the numbers of those 50.1 grains - and increasing those 50.0 grain cores.

For final weight control; you might consider sorting all of your jackets and cores into individual boxes by weight. I see nominal weight of most jackets from 22LR of ~10 grains. But; I see some that range down to 9.5 grains and some ranging up to 10.3 Grains. By sorting jackets by weight and cores by weight; you can then add specific weight of cores and jackets of specific weights to get a more controlled set of weighted groups. My observation is that doing so does not provide significant improvements; but that is probably due to my aging eyes, expanding belly, and lack of being a 20 something stud anymore (if I ever were).

[beeser]

Thanks for the response Mustang. Just to be clear though I'm not making a jacketed bullet, just all lead bullets for various pistols. Regardless, it looks like I can benefit by introducing another swaging step.

[garandsrus]

You might be able to drill a small hole in one of your punches so that the excess lead blends through that hole. It would probably need to be the punch in the top of the press so the lead has somewhere to go.

Core swage dies have holes in the side of the die. That may work also.

[beeser]

You might be able to drill a small hole in one of your punches so that the excess lead blends through that hole. It would probably need to be the punch in the top of the press so the lead has somewhere to go.

Core swage dies have holes in the side of the die. That may work also.

My form swaging die already has a hole in it for bleed out. I don't understand what an additional hole in the top punch would serve.

[jdfoxinc]

I purposely swage cores light. I use the bleed scraps to make weight. I'm using mixed head stamps .22 LR brass. 9.5 to 10.6 grain variation in weight.

[beeser]

I purposely swage cores light. I use the bleed scraps to make weight. I'm using mixed head stamps .22 LR brass. 9.5 to 10.6 grain variation in weight.

Good idea but as mentioned before I'm not swaging a jacketed bullet, just plain lead bullets.

[MUSTANG]

Good idea but as mentioned before I'm not swaging a jacketed bullet, just plain lead bullets.

I too swage .224 boolits (no jacket), then powder coat them, then size to .224. I use the same nose pointing die that I use for jacketed bullets made from 22LR. Swaging the cores gets a uniform weight for the swaged lead boolit. There is no "Bleed Hole" drilled into the Nose die; instead the ejection punch hole acts as the bleed hole. When using UNIFORM core weight; I adjust the nose die until I get just the flat tip on the nose from the ejection punch. If I do NOT UNIFORM the core weight; I will get some that are not fully pointed, some that are about right, and then some (overweight) that have a lead Tit on the nose. Uniforming core weights is a good thing - no matter the projectiles made.

[Faret]

Mustang what hardness lead are you using for that?

[beeser]

I too swage .224 boolits (no jacket), then powder coat them, then size to .224. I use the same nose pointing die that I use for jacketed bullets made from 22LR. Swaging the cores gets a uniform weight for the swaged lead boolit. There is no "Bleed Hole" drilled into the Nose die; instead the ejection punch hole acts as the bleed hole. When using UNIFORM core weight; I adjust the nose die until I get just the flat tip on the nose from the ejection punch. If I do NOT UNIFORM the core weight; I will get some that are not fully pointed, some that are about right, and then some (overweight) that have a lead Tit on the nose. Uniforming core weights is a good thing - no matter the projectiles made.

Another thanks Mustang! That's exactly what I was getting without a uniform core weight, a nose that was sometimes not fully pointed and without a uniform final weight. I will be adding a core swaging die to the process. Question and possibly a dumb one - If the core is at a precise and final weight is it necessary or advisable to have a bleed hole in the final swaging die? How close to the desired diameter projectile should the core swage die be sized?

[MUSTANG]

Mustang what hardness lead are you using for that?

I use Isotope Lead containers melted down; then cat as cores. These are 96% lead; 3% Antimony, and 1% Tin if I remember correctly. Not "Soft Lead"; but far from hard - I don't have a ready record of hardness from testing with Lee Hardness Tester; and I am not wading out through 1 foot of new snow today to the Reloading shed to get an ingot to measure. I would guess a Brinnell Hardness of about 9.8 based on what I recorded on a bottle of cast RCBS 165 Sil boolits I had on the shelf in the house.

My process:
Cost cores
Swage cores to weight & sort to 1/10th Grains
powder coat the cores and let air dry
swage cores in Pointing die to .224

This will result in boolits of about that 10 BHN reading.

Then if I want a harder Boolit; I can then reheat the powder coated boolits to 375° to 400° for 20 to 30 minutes; then dump into a 5 gallon bucket of water 60% full. This can get them to 20BHN or harder.

[MUSTANG]

Another thanks Mustang! That's exactly what I was getting without a uniform core weight, a nose that was sometimes not fully pointed and without a uniform final weight. I will be adding a core swaging die to the process. Question and possibly a dumb one - If the core is at a precise and final weight is it necessary or advisable to have a bleed hole in the final swaging die? How close to the desired diameter projectile should the core swage die be sized?

Beeser:

Making an assumption (yes dangerous) if your Swage Point forming die is like the Corbin dies; it is a bottom die that has an Ejection Punch that comes from the bottom on the down stroke to push the formed bullet out of the die. The ejection punch travels through a small hole in the end nose of the die, and is not in the die when the nose is swage to shape. This means any excess lead will flow through the ejection hole and NO Bleed Hole is needed as the Nose Ejection Punch hole acts in the same manner.


Now/ I have a Corbin die that is used to make .301 Boolits for Paper Patching; and it has bleed holes along the Ogive. I figure Dace Corbin knows what he is doing and why for this die; but I do not find it necessary in the .224 Lead Boolit Swaging I do as described above.

[garandsrus]

My form swaging die already has a hole in it for bleed out. I don't understand what an additional hole in the top punch would serve.

You never mentioned that the swaging die had a hole for bleed out. Are you getting some lead coming out of the holes? With those holes, the bullet should be a more consistent weight than you are getting, as long as your cores all have at least a little extra lead to bleed out. You will want to make sure that your punches aren't adjusted to where they are blocking the holes.

Most of the pistol bullet swaging dies I am familiar with don't use an ejection pin like the jacketed rifle point form die does. The top punch, which contains the bullet profile, is what pushes the bullet out of the die.

This is from the Corbin web site (http://www.corbins.com/lswc.htm)
The LSWC-1 lead semi-wadcutter die is used to make a semi-wadcutter style (shoulder between nose and shank) bullet. LSWC-1 dies can make lead, gas-check, or Base Guard bullets. The nose is formed in a cavity in one punch, and the base is formed against the end of the other punch. Three bleed holes around the circumference of the die allow surplus lead to be extruded from the core, to adjust the core weight.

[Sasquatch-1]

Cast slightly heavy. Weigh the cast and trim with a knife till you get the weight you want. Time consuming but can be very accurate. Also I believe isotope containers are rather hard. I have broken a swaging die reforming harder bullets. It cost about $130.00 to replace the die, from Dave Corbin, with shipping.

[beeser]

Beeser:

Making an assumption (yes dangerous) if your Swage Point forming die is like the Corbin dies; it is a bottom die that has an Ejection Punch that comes from the bottom on the down stroke to push the formed bullet out of the die. The ejection punch travels through a small hole in the end nose of the die, and is not in the die when the nose is swage to shape. This means any excess lead will flow through the ejection hole and NO Bleed Hole is needed as the Nose Ejection Punch hole acts in the same manner.


Now/ I have a Corbin die that is used to make .301 Boolits for Paper Patching; and it has bleed holes along the Ogive. I figure Dace Corbin knows what he is doing and why for this die; but I do not find it necessary in the .224 Lead Boolit Swaging I do as described above.

Sorry for the late response. I use the Walnut Hill press made by Richard Corbin. The die/punches currently used have a bleed hole in the side of the die and as configured will bleed lead just above the base of the projectile. The top punch fixed in place below the top platform forms the nose. The bottom punch forming the base sits on the ram. I have never seen a Corbin press so don't know if it operates the same. I'm still confused about the operation you described above.

[beeser]

You never mentioned that the swaging die had a hole for bleed out. Are you getting some lead coming out of the holes? With those holes, the bullet should be a more consistent weight than you are getting, as long as your cores all have at least a little extra lead to bleed out. You will want to make sure that your punches aren't adjusted to where they are blocking the holes.

Most of the pistol bullet swaging dies I am familiar with don't use an ejection pin like the jacketed rifle point form die does. The top punch, which contains the bullet profile, is what pushes the bullet out of the die.

This is from the Corbin web site (http://www.corbins.com/lswc.htm):
The LSWC-1 lead semi-wadcutter die is used to make a semi-wadcutter style (shoulder between nose and shank) bullet. LSWC-1 dies can make lead, gas-check, or Base Guard bullets. The nose is formed in a cavity in one punch, and the base is formed against the end of the other punch. Three bleed holes around the circumference of the die allow surplus lead to be extruded from the core, to adjust the core weight.

I checked the position of the punches with respect to the bleed hole and the hole is not obstructed. I also read (probably from the same source) that multiple bleed holes may be necessary. Mine only has one. But I also understand that too many bleed holes may not allow enough pressure to build in forming the projectile. I'm beginning to also understand the cost involved in making these dies.

[beeser]

Cast slightly heavy. Weigh the cast and trim with a knife till you get the weight you want. Time consuming but can be very accurate. Also I believe isotope containers are rather hard. I have broken a swaging die reforming harder bullets. It cost about $130.00 to replace the die, from Dave Corbin, with shipping.

I will try trimming some lead and weight off with a knife. Wish I would've thought of that before.

Breaking a die was my main concern when first trying to swage some harder lead. But that was when the core weight was such that I was needing to bleed off over 5 grs. It seems the pressure required to bleed lead, especially with only one bleed hole is larger than what it takes to form the projectile hence the advantage of having a precisely weighted core in the beginning. Does that sound about right?

[RonIa]

very good cores and great jackets are the key to making good match grade bullets I squirt every core when making match grade bullets I use very soft lead .5% Antimony my blackman core die has 3 bleed holes in it I set my cut cores up to be 3% heavier then a finished wt. core a good and consonant Technik will make cores that are less then .01 tenth of a grain in weight deafferents
Ron

[beeser]

I tried peeling off a little lead with a knife and other methods but found it very difficult because of the small core size. It's only .312" in diameter and about 1/4" long. The process works to whittle down the weight but making a separate core swaging die may be more productive.

[garandsrus]

Something is very wrong. I actually think your cores are too light at the start of the swaging process. You want enough extra weight on the core that some does squirt out the hole. Squirting some lead is the only reasonable way to get uniform weights. If no lead is squirted, the core is too light. I usually want the squirted piece to be 1/4” or longer. This is only a couple grains.

I know you said that your bleed hoses aren’t covered by the punch, but with only a 1/4” slug, it wouldn’t take much to cover them. My 308 cores for 168gr bullets are well over 1/2” long. Their diameter is less than .308 though since they go inside a 30 cal jacket. See if a very small drill bit will go through the bleed hole. There shouldn’t be any resistance if the bit is smaller than the hole. Then, lower the press handle without a core in the die (and without the drill bit in the hole!) and see if the drill bit still goes in the same depth. I don’t think it will, meaning the hole is blocked by one of the punches.

What the heck are you making with a .312 core that is 1/4” long? What does the core weigh? It is probably 80gr or so.

You might want to try and swag a few pieces of the softest lead you have just to see if the lead comes out of the bleed hole.

To make different weight cores, you may need different length punches. The top punch holder has a fair amount of adjustment, but may not have enough for what you want to make.

Here is the page from Corbin on making cores: http://www.corbins.com/csw.htm
Here is the point forming: http://www.corbins.com/pf.htm

You can see a small part of the ejection wire in a couple pictures. Your dies probably don’t have one of these since they are a different design, which might be like this: http://www.corbins.com/cs.htm