1888 Gewehr Commission Rifle HELP!!!!!!

[NikA]

I have a clip of P/88 ammo and an 1890 Erfurt with what I believe is the original barrel (matching, not upgraded to 88/05 spec) as well as access to a machine shop and all the measuring equipment that goes with it. Let me know if you'd like me to measure anything to settle this debate and I will do so this upcoming weekend.

ETA: I also have samples of WWII German issue 7.92 ball. Unfortunately, I do not have any WWI-era spitzer ball to measure.

[Emmagee303]

DG: Thank you for the praise. I have put my soul into my collection and am honoured by your words. Yes, she is fully operational and all original. It is a C&R piece that I bought out of one of my dearest friends collection many years ago. He passed suddenly in 96 and I assisted the family with his estate. He was an NFA dealer (SOT) and had an amazing collection. The family let me buy the Lewis. It is very sentimental to me and I keep her is perfect order. While I was waiting for the transfer paperwork to come through I went about scouring the nation for spares and accessories. I actually bought SARCO out of Lewis spares. What you see pictured is only a slice of my entire collection. The rest of my Enfields and accoutrements I have yet to show but will get round to posting more of the Enfields and such. My Lewis was made in January of 1918 according to serial number research. It shoots like a dream. I have burned out 2 barrels since I have had it. Yes, I used to shoot a lot! My friend and I would go out at least once a month and have go with many MG's from his collection and mine. I can truly say I have had my hands on so many wonderful and amazing pieces of history and learned to service them from original manuals or just by intuition. It comes naturally for me and is a gift. I also had an original Vickers MK-1 made by the Crayford Works in Kent England in February of 1917. I traced the serial number and found that it actually saw service with the Portuguese Army in March of 1918 during the Michael offensive launched by the Germans. Sadly, oh so sadly, I had to part with it in 2012. But that is another story that breaks my heart. Oh the memories...
I'm so very grateful I found you lot. It's so nice to be able to share our goodies and also share the history and pass on the knowledge. Your links won't open for some reason...ugh... I could talk your ears off about the Lewis, Enfields, British Army Kit, Ammunition, The Great War, and so on... I will save more for the next time Sir!
Cheers!
Terry

[Emmagee303]

El Gato: That picture speaks a thousand words to me! Ha! I just love the cat!!! Nice En bloc and German soft cap too! I wish mine were not converted to the charger clips as I have always loved the Mannlicher en bloc system! Well done!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Your links won't open for some reason...ugh... I could talk your ears off about the Lewis, Enfields, British Army Kit, Ammunition, The Great War, and so on... I will save more for the next time Sir!
Cheers!
Terry

Sorry--don't know what happened there. I usually upload jpgs from my photo files, but for some reason these became attachments. I don't know how to do attachments-- so it's a mystery.
DG

[Emmagee303]

DG: Beautiful pieces you have! Nice job on the wood repair!

[Emmagee303]

So now I am a bit perplexed. I wonder if I should go ahead and special order a set of .318 dies to go along with my standard .323 dies? I don't have any brass yet, still waiting for an auction to finish that I have bid on for that. Also don't have my boolits yet. I just ordered them. .321" 170 grain round nose flat point. Also haven't decided on a powder yet. So I'm in the "gathering" stages. I'm anxious to shoot this piece but want to have all the necessary kit to begin re-loading ASAP.
Here is what I am doing on the rifle at present. For the past 2 weeks I have been scrubbing the bore. I am using Hoppes Bench Rest copper solvent as a cleaner. I have used all types of solvents over the decades and found that this one is best not only for removing copper and lead fouling but also for heavily baked on carbon and powder fouling including cordite. My technique is to run wet patches through he bore then brush with a .35 cal copper bore brush 20 to 30 stokes then dry patch. Repeat several times then run wet patches of solvent to wet the bore and then leave overnight. Follow up the next day with same procedure. I'm still getting nasty black fouling out and copper fouling from decades of shooting. It seems never ending but I want the bore to be spotless and thoroughly clean and free of all fouling. The bore itself look very nice and the rifling is good, no pitting, no frosting, and no breaks in the lands all the way to the muzzle. Lands are worn a bit shallow of course form many rounds of .323" jacketed ball ammo but all in all it looks nice.
I am considering acquiring some .323", 200-ish grain round nose cast boolits and comparing their performance against the .321" 170 grain cast boolits. Also up for consideration is to cast the chamber and throat to ascertain more exact dimensions of the throat, chamber, and, bore diameter. I have never performed this technique so will need a comprehensive "how-to" guidance on this. Lastly, i still need some input on "pet-loads" using cast and jacketed boolits. Powder preferences, boolit weights and configurations, velocities, and pressures.
If any of you can address any of these issues, please do. Your information is greatly appreciated and I thank you!

Just for giggles, here are some pics of some original "J" and "S" patronen (rounds) from my collection. I did some measuring for reference.
The first photo is a mic of the "J" round nose boolit diameter.
Second photo is a photo of the "S" cartridge.
Third photo is head-stamp of the "S" cartridge.
Fourth photo is a mic of the "S" Spitzer boolit.
Fifth photo is both types of rounds in En-Bloc clips.
Sixth photo is head-stamp of the "J" cartridge.

Cheers all!
Terry

[swheeler]

I've got an 88 that has been bubbafied by myself. It has a .318" groove at the muzzle and .321 just an inch up from the chamber. I never did a pound cast but did a cerrosafe cast of the chamber, found a .355" neck diameter, short throat(all I'd read on internet was the opposite, supposed to be LONG THROAT) and fire .325 inch Lee 170 gr cast with red dot and 4198. I put Rem 700 sights on the barrel and it shoots more accurate than I can hold, even with the bullets having to be loaded so short. I believe it is a cz barrel, no cartridge interupter so I use enbloc clip.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hello again, esteemed Lewis Gun Owner (envy)--

I did not do the ordnance wood repairs. They were present when I purchased the rifles. I don't know for sure, but I think that the rifles came from India and that Indian Ord did the work, as this lot appeared on the market about the same time as did the Indian SMLE rifles. I did refinish the stocks. I purposely did not stain the repairs and left them the same color as received as being good examples of the art of wood replacement.

Look at it this way--well this is how I'd look at it---you've got the .318 bullets and you've got the .323 dies, so what's the harm in trying? Just try 2 or 3, and if it won't work out, then buy the .318 dies. Either way I'd get and use a Lee FCD.

Try either IMR or H-4895 for starters. It's a great powder that works in most .30 Cal. type loads. If you're not happy, then try something else, but I'll bet you'll get good results. Works great in .303 also.

Your cartridge headstamp translates to: Fabrica de Cartouchoes y Pulvoras Quimicas (National Cartridge & Powder Factory), Portugal.

Those Gew. 88 clips, the originals, are hard to come by, are they not? I have exactly 2, for which I had to pay $25 each. I also have about a dozen replicas purchased from GPC several years ago that look great, but don't work.

Not a positive I.D. on second cartridge, but may be: .303 Brit. round made by Rudge-Whitworth cycle Co. Nottingham, UK 1915-18. (?) I can't read the headstamp as clearly as in the photo of the 8mm ctg. Looks like an "R"? 03 maybe 15 or 45 (if 45, doesn't square with WW I dates) and unsure about the bottom character. Maybe 9?

What is the overall length of the J and JS rounds? Not too critical really, but lends itself to the contention that the notch in the receiver ring was not ground to accommodate the JS pointed bullet. I think there were some changes made in the bullets anyway, and no guarantee that Portugal-production is the same as German . In the case of your particular rifle, converted to pattern 88/05, the notch would have preceded the conversion by several years. To test the theory one would have to have an unnotched specimen and an en-bloc clip loaded with JS ammo, which you do, and attempt insertion.

As an aside, good to know Gew. 88 lore, the letter J was originally I for Infantrie. At the time of development of the 1888 the Germans used Gothic style writing, and the I looked like an English J and became to be know as such in other countries. I had a good friend, now deceased, from E. Germany whom I put to work (unpaid!) translating the writing on German WW I postcards. Very interesting in that some were written in the Latin alphabet, and some in Gothic. He had a hard time with the Gothic, and wasn't able to completely translate some of them. He said that when he went to grammer school (gymnasium) in the early 1930s that the transition had already been made.



DG

[El Gato]

Emmagee303,

Thanks a lot! My gatos seem to like my classic rifles best. I am lucky to have 3 Gew 1888 clips; they are difficult to find.

The Gew 1888 is underrated in my opinion. I used to own a Gew 1888/05/35 but I gave it to my Godson for his confirmation present. She shot extremely well with jacketed bullets and lyman 323470. I even took it to Camp Perry!

Good luck with your Gew 1888 adventure!

[flintlocke]

I have an 88 and a 1904 Steyr, and have slugged a number of very early German and Austrian sporting rifles...my findings correspond with Winston 10's posts...I have NEVER measured any groove diameter anywhere as small as .318"...everything I can remember, including some very high quality Haenel sporters ran .320 to .321. I have recommended to the owners, and in my own rifles...if you shoot jacketed, Hornady and Speer .321" will give you great accuracy with good velocity safely. I shoot .324" gas checked cast in my own rifles as well. The 1904 Steyr with .320" groove as follows, 175 Lee GC with Lee Liq Alox,13 gr Red Dot, Rem case,Fed 210m gives 1700 fps+2.2" 5 shot groups at 100 yds, issue sights. Jacketed 170 gr Speer .321" flat point, 42 gr of 3031 at 2600 fps for a 2.1" 5 shot group at 100yd. In experiments, I have driven gas checked cast to 2500 fps with RL-7 with no leading but terrible accuracy, 4" at 100yd. One mans experience.

[El Gato]

Terry,

I have found that this .322 bullet shoots extremely well for my Gew 1888s. It does extremely well at 200 yards. I used 42 grains of Vectan TU5000. Again, I would slug the barrel.

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog...roductId/29114

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I've got an 88 that has been bubbafied by myself. It has a .318" groove at the muzzle and .321 just an inch up from the chamber. I never did a pound cast but did a cerrosafe cast of the chamber, found a .355" neck diameter, short throat(all I'd read on internet was the opposite, supposed to be LONG THROAT) and fire .325 inch Lee 170 gr cast with red dot and 4198. I put Rem 700 sights on the barrel and it shoots more accurate than I can hold, even with the bullets having to be loaded so short. I believe it is a cz barrel, no cartridge interupter so I use enbloc clip.

Interesting information, Mr. Wheeler. Certainly contradicts some previous opinions. Sounds to me like the original neck was enlarged. But, as previously stated, not all rifles received all modifications. Why do you draw the conclusion that your barrel is a CZ barrel? Are there markings indicating that? Are there any Turkish markings on your rifle?

DG

[KenT7021]

I made the GPC M88 clips function by placing a piece of .250 inch flat stock in the clip and using a hammer on the front flared portion of the clip.They're not as smooth as an original but they work.

[swheeler]

DG it is a Spandau 1889 with spoonhandle bolt, pretty sure the barrel is not the orginal, think maybe it was CZ marked and no Turkish marklings anywhere on the action. I can not be sure though because looking in the notes for it last time it was fired was 4-5-2010, also the last time I saw it.

edit; notes say the Lee 175 cast bullet sized at .325" touches rifling at 2.699" OAL in this gun, short throat. 2.669" coal is short in every other 8x57 I have.

[jrmartin1964]

Never ceases to amaze and amuse me how quickly a thread about the Gew. 88 turns into something other than a friendly discussion. All I have to say is that my 1890 Spandau, which does carry the "S" on the receiver but no other modifications (it still carries the long sight leaf graduated for the P-88 ammunition, and the magazine still must use the enbloc clip), measures 8mm (0.3149") bore diameter and 8.15mm (0.3208") groove diameter. The barrel is, by all accounts, the original. I base this on the contour of the barrel ahead of the chamber, where there is an abrupt contour to the barrel ahead, rather than the longer more gradual taper of the later "improved" barrel contour.

The best advice that can be given on these rifles is to slug YOUR barrel, and carefully and accurately measure YOUR barrel's bore and groove dimensions before the first cartridge is loaded (assuming you have judged for yourself, or a competent gunsmith has judged, your rifle to be safe to fire in the first place).

After that, load a few test cartridges, with whatever diameter bullet seems most appropriate, and after firing measure the inside diameter of the cartridge case. This will give you a ballpark idea of what diameter bullet YOUR chamber will accept.

For mine, I size cast bullets to 0.323", and on those rare occasions when jacketed bullets are used they are also 0.323" diameter. That's in MY rifle. YMMV

Measure first.

Jim

[Gtek]

My pound cast- preferably fired case in that chamber spent primer in place. If extractor is a pain or just leave it alone and turn off rim of case first. Lathe, drill press, hand drill, file, belt sander, whatever needed. Now take a propane and just almost cherry up front 1/3 case to just below shoulder, set down on concrete floor and walk away or drop in water if in a hurry. When cool confirm dry in/out and chamfer inside neck, and with flare die or needle nose pliers work just as well, open front of neck until you just barely get it going home. Now stand and fill with lead melt or epoxy up to just 1/4"-3/8" below shoulder, case done. Having lathes the next part is just a step for me and several other ways to skin the cat. I take a piece of brass a couple inches long .375" OD and center drill one end to a depth of about .625", .250" ID. Pull out about 2.00" and turn to just slip bore diameter approx. 1.50" long and cut clean, that piece done. Last piece, .250" steel rod about 36" long from hardware store, cut or confirm one clean nice square end with VERY small radius that fits nicely in brass. Install rod back in brass and mark with Sharpie on rod at base of brass, remove brass, and then oil the bore prior to next step. Beginning just behind marker line start wrapping electrical tape every six inches to a slip/snug bore diameter (same direction throughout) as you work rod into bore to chamber depth. Once chamber depth is reached I grab rod with full grip and mark at top off hand, remove rod then nice clean cut at line. Find a nice piece of dead soft and work to a almost dowel Hot Dog shape to just fit bore 2.00" long or so. Case in chamber, close bolt, I like to remove barrel/rec from stock if possible and secure to bench for feel and no movement. Tap in lead, tap in brass, insert rod and tap to resistance at bottom. A 2 lb. ball peen or a little more with light to medium no bounce swings start smushing till you feel and hear bottom. Open bolt fully and or remove bolt, lightly tap out your new pound cast and away it goes to mic. No time frame for measuring, and last as long as you want if treated nicely. Screw it up, not happy, take a pair of pliers, pull out the lead and do it again, again, etc.. There you are, I know long winded but might save you some think thunk time if attempt is made.

[Emmagee303]

God's Holy Trousers.....what have I done...

[Gtek]

You did start it! It probably sounds like a lot but with the stuff being accessible I would say less than an hour tops start to finish with a definitive closure. Curious though, how many hours you got rubbing on that drum thang!

[Emmagee303]

GTEK: I have had it for 20 plus years, burned out 2 barrels, so far,... LOL Have had to only replace a few extractors and 1 mainspring. I don't abuse it though when I'm out "rubbing" on it. Run a drum or 2 through it, (short bursts), the let her cool... Cleaning usually takes me several days as I go over each part, nook, and cranny thoroughly. It' spotless when I'm finished. After all, one mishap to the receiver and I'm done for. Can't replace it. I have enough spares for it to last a lifetime and in the past several years I only take her to the field once in a blue moon. I've got loads of Enfields to keep my Cordite addiction at bay. Come out to Oklahoma, look me up, and we'll have a go with her! In payment for that you can pound cast my "Gewey 88"! Bahahahaha!

[Emmagee303]

jrmartin:

I do appreciate the information greatly. My intent when I originally posted was never to let this turn into a "pissing contest". I feel I have contributed to just that and do apologize to ALL including WINSTON. I am going to re-slug the barrel a couple more times and post the findings. I am in search of powder at the moment, (may as well be chicken lips) lol. I have some .321 cast boolits on the way. 175 grain RNFP to start with. I do have about 5lbs of Accurate 2230 but can find no load data for it in 8x57. I think I need to take a couple of my Enfields and maybe my Martini-Henry out to send some frustration downrange...