1888 Gewehr Commission Rifle HELP!!!!!!

[Emmagee303]

FIRST TIME POSTING HERE: Good day all!
I have in my collection an 1888 Gehwehr Commission Rifle, (1894 DANZIG). I want to shoot cast Boolits through it but need some help identifying which variant it is and what would be the safest diameter boolit to use. It bears the (S) on the receiver, has the receiver notch cut, charger clip guides, dust cover on bottom of mag well, Turkish markings on the bolt and rear sight. It also bears the letters (NM) under the stamping (Gew.88) on the left side of the receiver. I slugged the bore twice and came up with .311 diameter. I also used digital calipers to mic the muzzle end of the bore and also came up with .311 diameter. In my research i have seen refernce to barrels that were referred to as (CZECH replacement Z barrels) that were allegedly turned down 1893 mauser barrels that had a much smaller bore diameter and were meant to fire a .315 diameter bullet or there about. I have also read posts about South African barrels and Turkish barrels of varying diameters. I am well aware of the sometimes heated controversy over the exact specs of these rifles, their variants and upgrades, where they have been, who did what to them, the meanings of all the makings, the specifications of the different versions of the 8mm cartridge, and if Erich Luddendorf really did wear women's undergarments while he was Chief of Staff of the Imperial German Army during the Great War. (Insert canned laughter here).
Below I have attached photos of the rifle and all markings in hopes someone could tell me with relative certainty which barrel I have and what to shoot through it.
I do know a bit about these rifles but I am here for good solid fact based knowledge and advice so lets pretend I don't know jack-diddley about them. Class is in session and I am your apt pupil! I thank you all for your input on this subject.

V/r
Terry

[smithnframe]

I think the S bore is .323 bullet diameter. Good looking 88!

[slim1836]

If there were a couple more markings on that rifle it would fall apart.

Slim

[Emmagee303]

Thank you.

[Emmagee303]

Slim: That is the reason they lost the second world war. They were too busy marking everything!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hey...! No one officially welcomed you to the CB Forum, so I will say "Welcome aboard"! Glad to have you here.

First, let me compliment you on your many excellent photos. It's pure pleasure to have someone seeking identification information to show their firearm in such detail, and makes assisting you much easier.

I have several of these rifles, and will tell you what I know. First, the original bore size of the Gew 88 used
bullets of .318" diameter. The bullets were round nosed. The bores were originally .311" and a nominal groove diameter of .319". Later, when the Gew 98 was adopted it used a spritzer bullet of .323", which remained the German standard through the end of WW II. As your specimen has an "S" stamped on the receiver ring it means that the chamber's throat area was modified for the .323" round, the "S" standing for spritzer (pointed.

The Germans made many, many of these rifles, and at the time they had a far flung empire that included stakes in colonial Africa. The rifles were spread throughout their holdings, and not all rifles received all modifications. So it is not that uncommon to find a rifle that was refitted with a "NM" barrel, but the bore size remained the original .311", and was then given the "S" upgrade without a 2nd barrel change. I believe, based on your measurements, that is what you have.

Further, the receiver ring being notched indicates that it was modified for use of the spritzer tipped bullet as the round had a longer overall length. The 7.9 marking on the side of the rear sight base indicates that the caliber is 7.92mm, a more precise designation for 8mm Mauser. But that can not be taken as meaning the barrel was replaced for the larger diameter bullet, as the 7.9 designation was used for both the earlier and later rounds. It is, however, quite likely that because of the receiver modification your rifle saw use with the later .323" ammo.

"NM" means "new material" (steel) when the original barrel's metallurgy was found lacking and barrels split, and the steel was upgraded in subsequent production. This marking is usually found on replacement barrels, and usually not so often on the receiver, as the receivers did not fail, just the barrels. Many earlier production rifles (most of them) were fit with the new "NM" barrels, but the bore size was not changed as the original ammo was still in use.

The many single letter or number stamps on the bottom of the receiver and the barrel are mostly inspection/inspector markings indicating that this or that measurement was up to spec, and are likely a mixture of German and Turkish marks. I know of no source to determine their precise meaning.

I see a Turksh crescent moon on the bolt handle knob, and Turkish numbers on the rear sight, but no other Turk markings. This is unusual, as "Turked" rifles usually have several such marks, sometimes even on small parts; but really it's impossible to say, because there were always some rifles, sometimes a lot of them, that were left out of any particular modification, and that's one thing that makes collecting Gew 88s an interesting pastime.

The markings on the barrel band indicate the specific unit to which the rifle was issued and the number of the weapon within their inventory, in your case #58. It was common to strike out the former owner's property marks, which is what occurred on the other side of the band, when it was reissued to another unit, and to strike them all out when they were shipped to Turkey as war aid. It is unusual, but again not unheard of, for the last German owner's marking to remain on the band without being struck out before export. One has to exercise caution in drawing conclusions about the presence of the markings, because small parts are easily changed out or replaced, and there have been a lot of these rifles in this country for many years now, and possibly someone replaced the band.

The charger clip guides were not on the original Gew 88 and were a subsequent add on to the rifle which was then designated the 88/05. The original rifle used en-bloc charger clips that were inserted into the rifle, and which fell out of the bottom of the magazine when empty and the next clip inserted. The 88/05 was modified to use stripper clips that were discarded after loading. The hole in the bottom of the magazine housing was closed with a stamped sheet metal cover that slid on over the hole, and an interrupter device in the left wall of the receiver to prevent double feeding or ejection of unfired rounds. If your rifle matches this description, then you have an 88/05.

Finally, a last word about ammo. The Gew 98 using the .323" diameter bullet was the German's standard WW I rifle, but the Gew 88 was issued to many reserve units. Eventually the .318" diameter ammo was exhausted and the .323" ammo was used in the Gew. 88 rifles. This is, of course, to us a very questionable practice, but the Germans didn't seem to spend too much time worrying about it. Many Gew 88s made it to the fighting with the units to which they were issued, and countless of thousands of .323" ammo were fired through them. We have no records of blowups if there were any. I, myself, would hesitate to do that, and in response to the many Gew 88s that found their way to the U.S. as surplus imports or G.I. bring backs the Remington Co. made ammo with .321" diameter bullets and reduced charges. This commercial ammo was meant to be a happy compromise between the two diameters of .318" and .323", but was not particularly accurate. I shoot cast .321 diameter bullets in my Gew 88s using an RCBS mold that was intended for .32 Win. Special. The Turks did refit many of their Gew 88s with newly made, domestic production .323" barrels, but I don't think that you have one of them. So, if shooting jacketed bullets I would suggest that you use .318" (they can be found), and if cast try some .321".

DG

[Emmagee303]

Herr Gebirgsjager:

Thank you for the warm welcome and the very kind words! Your information is gladly received on this subject! I commend you on your knowledge!
I located some jacketed .318 diameter bullets that range from 150 to 200 grains in weight. Being a bit of a traditionalist I would like to keep my loads close to the original bullet weight of the J ammunition which was as I recall around 225 grains. What say ye? Also, I'm looking into the .321 diameter cast boolit method as well, however I am not set up to cast my own yet.
I am a collector of mainly British military arms and equipment and an avid historian/researcher of The Great War but I also collect/restore antique kerosene lamps, lanterns and stoves, predominately of British military origin, not to mention a re-loader, my plate is always full of projects and I'm hesitant to add boolit casting to that list. I shoot a Martini Henry MK-IV and reload for it so am familiar with loading cast boolits but until now I have been expedient and bought pre-custom cast boolits. I may well have to break down and buy the set up to cast my own now...
Another question: Would standard 8x57 Mauser dies work alright for loading and shooting both the .318 and .321 boolits, or would I need to purchase a set of .318 dies also?

[john.k]

Whatever the bore/groove dimensions ,if you shoot undersized cast boolits ,the bore will lead so much in a few shots you wont hit a 25yd target.....(There is a way around this,and that is to use a bit of granular filler which acts as a gascheck.)...nevertheless,an oversized cast boolit wont cause any harm,and wont lead ,so err on the oversize when buying a mould.

[samari46]

Groove diameter of my Danzig 1891 slugs out at .321 do I can use
.323 cast bullets. But seems dimensions of these are all over the place. Frank

[40-82 hiker]

Welcome aboard Terry!

I suggest you slug the bore and cast the chamber for the throat dimensions. This will give you a precise answer, and the throat dimensions will give you a leg up on a mold if you choose to go in that direction.

[sharps4590]

I am so ignorant of the history of those rifles I can't say anything. You say you slugged the bore twice and came up with .311 both times but, you don't say if that is bore or groove diameter. Assuming it is groove diameter your cast bullet diameter should be .312-.313. Jacketed would obviously be .311-.312.

Accurate Molds and others will have molds to provide what you need. If jacketed bullets are what you need, Hawk Bullets might be your only resource for the weight desired at .311-.312 diameter.

Groove diameter SHOULD be around .318. Woodleigh makes a .318, 200 gr. round nose, I think and Hawk makes a couple weights in .318. You can swage jacketed .323 bullets down to .318 which is what I do for two double rifles.

That's all I know...and it's probably questionable.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Herr Gebirgsjager:

Thank you for the warm welcome and the very kind words! Your information is gladly received on this subject! I commend you on your knowledge!
I located some jacketed .318 diameter bullets that range from 150 to 200 grains in weight. Being a bit of a traditionalist I would like to keep my loads close to the original bullet weight of the J ammunition which was as I recall around 225 grains. What say ye? Also, I'm looking into the .321 diameter cast boolit method as well, however I am not set up to cast my own yet.
I am a collector of mainly British military arms and equipment and an avid historian/researcher of The Great War but I also collect/restore antique kerosene lamps, lanterns and stoves, predominately of British military origin, not to mention a re-loader, my plate is always full of projects and I'm hesitant to add boolit casting to that list. I shoot a Martini Henry MK-IV and reload for it so am familiar with loading cast boolits but until now I have been expedient and bought pre-custom cast boolits. I may well have to break down and buy the set up to cast my own now...
Another question: Would standard 8x57 Mauser dies work alright for loading and shooting both the .318 and .321 boolits, or would I need to purchase a set of .318 dies also?

In answer to your last question, Emmagee303, I anticipated a problem with neck tension, using the .323" dies for the .318" bullets, and I purchased a set of RCBS .318" dies, which work perfectly. They cost a bit more that the standard dies, if I remember correctly. Right now, with the reloading supplies and component shortages, the correct dies and bullets might prove difficult to find. You could try the standard dies if you have them available, and it might work. Cast bullets that are lubed might prove sticky enough that they would stay in place long enough for you to crimp them in place with a Lee Factory Crimp die.
Some of the members here are very into reloading with many dies at their disposal, and sometimes come up with some surprising solutions using dies for a different cartridge to accomplish their purpose, so someone more knowledgeable than I may have some ideas.

DG

[Emmagee303]

Herr Gebirgsjager:
I too am familiar with "Winston". I also came across the very same threads in the forum you speak of from long ago. It was the Western Bullet forum if memory serves correct. I too was very disheartened by his rhetoric and ad hominum approach to the subject. I also noted his lack of evidential matter on the subject and have dismissed him outright. Enough said.
On a lighter note: I have purchased a set of Lee Pacesetter dies in standard .323 diameter and will see if they will work on the following boolits. I purchaed some .321 diameter cast boolits lubed with SPG which I use regurlarly on my Martini-Henry loads which works well. I am also going to purchase some 200 grain .318 diameter round nose soft point jacketed boolits to experiment with. My plan is to compare each one to see which ones my Old Frau prefers. I will post the results.
Next question: Powder and load data for above mentioned boolits. What suggestions do you or any one else in the Forum have for this? I use 4895 currently for my .303 British hand loads and have seen some mention of it being a good choice for the Gewehr 88/05.
Thought/suggestions please.
I do sincerely thank all of you who have responded to this thread and shared your input. I am here to learn and share.

V/r
Terry

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hi Terry-- Thanks for your appreciation and discerning comments. Nuff said.

I don't think you'll be at all disappointed with the accuracy of your Gew 88, shooting either the 200 gr. Jacketed bullets or the .321 SPG lubed cast bullets. That is the one thing that has always seemed to be something you can count on, these rifles shoot surprisingly well. IMR 4895 is what I load mine with, so that's a good place to start. But, there are so many other powders now days (if you can find them!) that I have no doubt some of them would perform quite well also.

You could also try the "Universal Military Rifle Cast Bullet Load" of which there are a couple of versions--do a search of this website. 8mm Mauser is one of those that seem to perform well with those loads.

So you like British rifles ! ? ! I guess your "handle" is a clue. I am a big fan of the Lee Enfield series, and although I admit that the No. 4 is probably a bit better, my favorite has always been the No. 1 Mk. III. I've got a pretty good collection/accumulation of them, and find the Indian-made version to be pretty much the equal of the British-made specimens. I've also made some nice sporters from rifles that had previously been molested by Bubba past the point of return to original. I recently finished up my last, as I can see Age 80 coming down the trail not too far, and the cup is now almost full. Here's some "eye candy" for you....but there's more. I still love 'em, but in the last decade or so I kind of drifted away to Krags. Nice to meet you. Please continue to contribute posts and knowledge to this, the best internet firearms forum.

DG

[Emmagee303]

Herr Gebirgsjager:

Well NOW you really have my attention! Oh my yes i do adore the Enfields! You caught the bait on my handle! Good on you sir! You have a wonderful collection I must say. I always appreciate the sight of the old SMELLIES... My favourite is hands down the P-14 of which i have 2. A Remington and an Eddystone and they shoot spectacularly. I will take heed of your information on the load components for my Frau 88. I only have a few more items to purchase (powder and brass) before I get cracking on loading for it. I will certainly keep posting on this forum as I also believe it is by far the finest and I'm a picky bastard!
Well NOW i have some eye candy for you: Do enjoy...

[Gtek]

Make a pound cast then you will know/see everything.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Choke...choke...gasp..an honest to goodness Lewis Gun! Fantastic! Is it operational? They had to be some of the neatest LMGs ever invented. I'll bet you stole yours from Tom Selleck's "High Road To China!" Another pair in "The Sand Pebbles", if I recall correctly. I don't know why we (meaning USA) didn't make more use of them than they did. I'll bet that assemblage of tools and accessories was harder to come by than the gun. Congratulations on a very fine collection!

I see that, like these, one of your P-14s has an ordnance repair to the heel. Besides these, 3 Eddystones, I have one made by Winchester, but no photo. On the Winchester I had to do a repair job on the handguard. It was split end to end, and I lined the inside with a nylon mesh coated with AccraGlas. Can't see the repair, came out nicely. None of mine have the actual volley sight, but all retain the base.

Attachment 276662 Attachment 276663 Attachment 276664

DG

[El Gato]

Nice Gew 1888!

Mine likes the Lee Maximum Mold sized to .324. They drop around 235 grains. Mine slugs at .322. Here is my cat Samson with a clip.

Nice Lewis gun!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I know that you desire to draw me (or anyone else) into a lengthy, protracted argument. It just ain't gonna happen. We delete argumentative posts routinely. You're just about outta here. One more.

DG

[Emmagee303]

Gtek: Thank you for the suggestion. I've never done this technique before. Could you explain it please and provide a list of materials needed? Much appreciated Sir!

V/r
Terry