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Thread: Fletchettes?

  1. #1
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    W.R.Buchanan's Avatar
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    Fletchettes?

    Have you heard of Fletchettes? Well if you haven't they are a specialty payload for shotshells.

    A Fletchette is essentially a little Dart made from a 2d nail with fins stamped on it instead of a conventional nail head. They were loaded into 12 ga shotshells used in the Vietnam era. They were commonly known as "Beehive" rounds in deference to how they zipped thru a body in all directions like Bees buzzing around you..

    What you got was 10 Fletchettes loaded point forward and 9 stuffed in point backwards. On meat at close range they were devastating!!! to say the least. Tales I heard from grunts said that all you had to do was yell "Beehive" and the gooks would run for their lives. Tests I've seen with these things show them slicing thru a body in totally random fashion in all directions. Hence the name "Beehive."

    Which brings us to my real topic for this thread, and it is an article I read in "American Shooters Journal," I get in my emails every month or so. Lots of times the information in some of the articles is PURE BS and I always make a note to reply to the editor when I see it. This was one more example of pure BS.

    Such was the case with the article on "Fletchettes" in the last issue. First the guy never mentioned the name "Beehive" which is the more common term for these rounds. For me this was the first Red Flag.

    Then came the claims for accuracy and at distances like 100, 200 and yes 300 yards from a "Cylinder Bore Shotgun!!!!"

    That's where I got off the train, as that was pure BS.

    The guy was quoting some outfit that is supposed to be manufacturing these rounds for the military, and they quoted 1925 fps ! Have any of you ever loaded any 12 ga round to 1925 fps? I missed it if you did.

    First: these are small darts that weigh almost nothing. I think they said 11 gr each. 209 gr total. There is not enough mass to deliver significant penetration beyond at most 50 yards. They are relatively streamlined.

    Second: You aren't going to hit said target with all 19 darts. The 10 that are pointed forward will go in the general direction they were launched but still will not fly perfectly strait because a Dart will go which ever way it is pointed and that's all there is to it. However the ones pointed backwards are going to make a 180 as soon as the wad releases them, and they are NOT going to go along with the rest of them.

    No need to test them as Taofledermaus already did it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMPOGYRZ3Hw

    Their results were somewhat worse at 10 yards 2 hit the target head on and only 7 even hit the target. At 50 yards none hit the target at all.


    He was purporting these as defensive rounds in Grizz country, and when he got to killing Grizzly Bears at 100 yards with these rounds I had to call Complete BS! I can see pissing a Bear off maybe, but killing it? You've got to hit the target first.

    If anyone has any more information on Fletchette rounds please feel free to comment. Many of us are Vietnam Vets and might have had direct contact with these rounds. I was in the Air Force at that time, and I heard of these and actually saw some of the shells but nothing beyond the War Stories. They were simply OD Green 12 ga shells with Fletchette stamped on the side. I also remember CTD selling the darts by the pound a few years back. But further research showed many outfits still selling the darts. Sarco etc.

    Are these allowed by the Geneva Convention? Not legal to even own in some states, like mine.

    I also know that another use was about 10 lbs of these little darts in 105MM Howitzer Shells, and my imagination says that would make a mess!

    Randy
    Last edited by W.R.Buchanan; 01-24-2021 at 06:16 PM.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I read a few stories on them. They were said to be real good in close range jungle type foliage. Once in awhile you'd get a kill at 75-100 yards from a stray one! But was in no way a common occurrence. I bought about 2 dozen of'em at a gunshow just for fun and to give them away to interested kids. Todd/3leg
    Last edited by 3leggedturtle; 01-24-2021 at 06:12 PM.

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    The Flechette Warhead

    For the 2.75 inch Folding Fin Aerial Rocket

    2.75 Inch rocket

    The 10 pound Flechette: WDU (4A/A).
    Was used primarily for antipersonnel operations. Contained approximately 2,200 twenty grain flechettes. The flechettes are released by a base-mounted, fuze-ignited (integral fuze) expulsion charge at rocket motor burnout. Fuzed weight of the flechette is 9.3 pounds.

    https://www.centaursinvietnam.org/Hi...OrdRocket.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMPOGYRZ3Hw
    Last edited by skeettx; 01-24-2021 at 06:18 PM.
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    I'd heard the Grunts used a lot of them in 12 ga over in the jungles of Viet Nam.

    I haven't been to a gun show since Jesus was a Corporal, but you used to see bags of them
    on tables with other surplus stuff.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


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    Boolit Master chutesnreloads's Avatar
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    If I'm not mistaken there was also a fletchette round for the 40mm grenade launcher

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    I used to handload flechette rounds for my break-top Iver-Johnson .38S&W. Brass brazing wire cut to about an inch length, on 3 grains of bullseye, I think it was. Probably too hot for the gun. They would not be legal here in Oklahoma. Law says bullets must be at least 60% lead. Lead solder in the .032 size wire would probably work, but I lost that pistol around 40 years ago. Ex took it, and got it stolen out of her car. I'd read about them in one of the gun mags, and had to try it. Purely tore up a paper target. Only fired one in anger once. Neighbor kid's dog kept jumping my fence. It was dark so I didn't see what damage was done. Kid was really mad at me for hurting his dog. I told him if he didn't want him hurt, to not let him run around the neighborhood. Big German Shepherd. Kid kept him home after that. My dog wasn't jumping the fence.

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    The weight and size of the flechettes used by the military depends on the round that fires them They are not effective at long range, the flechettes loose their velocity very rapidly. Generally used at close range, last ditch defense by a ground unit against massed infantry. As pointed out earlier there is or was a 2.75" Folding Fin Aerial Rocket (FFAR) 10lb version, known as "Nails". Off the top of my head I don't remember how far out of the tube the warhead activated and the fletchettes were released. Warhead was used in Vietnam against massed infantry by helicopter gunships. Never got to use them. There was a tank flechette round used in the armor community for the 90MM and 105MM guns. Don't remember if the 120MM version was ever fielded. They were called "Beehive" or Beehive Time". The "Beehive" round opened automatically at a set range beyond gun's muzzle. "Beehive Time" had the capability to be set to open at a specified distance from the muzzle. It gave the potential to use the round at longer ranges. The field artillery community also uses a flechette round. The usually name for it is "Canister" . It was used as a last ditch defense when the position was in danger of being over run. I believe the artillery version also had a fuse to allow a delayed dispersal of the flechettes.
    Bill

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    Boolit Master
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    We studied them in 106mm recoiless rifle training but never got to use them. They had a setting on the nose for the range you wanted it to disperse.

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    They were available for the 105mm cannon in the M-60's I was on. There was one that had a fixed fuse and another that was timed and could be set to open up farther out. We never uploaded them. All our stuff was sabot or heat with a few willy Pete's thrown in to provide cover and start fires. We were first in to the Fulda Gap. Cold war guys will recognize that. If I remember correctly they had something like 8000 flechets in them. It's been a long time. Nasty anti personnel stuff.

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    Boolit Master fastdadio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeettx View Post
    The Flechette Warhead

    For the 2.75 inch Folding Fin Aerial Rocket

    2.75 Inch rocket

    The 10 pound Flechette: WDU (4A/A).
    Was used primarily for antipersonnel operations. Contained approximately 2,200 twenty grain flechettes. The flechettes are released by a base-mounted, fuze-ignited (integral fuze) expulsion charge at rocket motor burnout. Fuzed weight of the flechette is 9.3 pounds.

    https://www.centaursinvietnam.org/Hi...OrdRocket.html

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMPOGYRZ3Hw
    Interesting read from the Centaurs page. Thanks for posting that. I was a unit armorer/supply guy (76y) for an artillery battery, 93Bn/34th Fa) Ft. Lewis 83-86. 155mm Howitzers, M-198. Ammo stocked a beehive round for us but we never fired any. We did train in direct fire with HE's at armored vehicles. APC's and tanks were no match for a hit with one of those.
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    Boolit Master fastdadio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chutesnreloads View Post
    If I'm not mistaken there was also a fletchette round for the 40mm grenade launcher
    I think you're right. I remember the ammo guys talking about that one also.
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    The Fulda Gap! Holy crap, that phrase brings back some memories! Nothing like living life on the edge of the razor, eh Finster?
    "We take a thousand moments for granted thinking there will be a thousand more to come. Each day, each breath, each beat of your heart is a gift. Live with love & joy, tomorrow is not promised to anyone......"

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    I just knew we'd get some good comments on this one. I knew a little about these rounds, but knew enough that I called BS on the article.

    The idea of shooting at a Bear at 100 yards and expecting some dramatic result is nonsense, and after looking at the Taofledermaus Video, I don't really see any big tactical advantage over regular shot loads, and not even close to buck shot or slugs at range.

    Anyway,,, something different to talk about.

    Randy
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by centershot View Post
    The Fulda Gap! Holy crap, that phrase brings back some memories! Nothing like living life on the edge of the razor, eh Finster?
    Ran border patrol at Hof every 90 days or so. That's a whole nother thread.

  15. #15
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    I think the flechettes would need to be something of higher density such as tungsten like our sabot rounds were. I still don't see it being very effective in a shotgun round except for very close range. I don't get the wisdom in loading some backwards just to tighten the packing either, seems they open up the group in flight trying to right themselves. I believe fewer projectiles and a filler would give a better result.

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    Boolit Buddy Ural Driver's Avatar
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    They are the definition of an APR (Anti Personnel Round). We had those for direct fire (with the gun tube pretty much level with the ground) in our 105mm howitzers. Those 8000 little steel darts will clear the area in front of the gun pit, quick, fast and in a hurry......leaves, sticks, brush, small trees, humans....with their guns nailed to the bodies.......yes, it can get really, really messy.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Ural Driver; 02-16-2021 at 11:15 PM.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
    The idea of shooting at a Bear at 100 yards and expecting some dramatic result
    If it saw who did it, there might be some dramatic results after all.
    In school: We learn lessons, and are given tests.
    In life: We are given tests, and learn lessons.


    OK People. Enough of this idle chit-chat.
    This ain't your Grandma's sewing circle.
    EVERYONE!
    Back to your oars. The Captain wants to waterski.

  18. #18
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    That round looks pretty much like what I saw in AIT. It was a Timed Bee Hive. Note the timer on the nose to set the disbursement range.

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    end result looks like a bad case of the measles

  20. #20
    Boolit Master rondog's Avatar
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    Were these ever loaded into shells? Or only air-dropped?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lazy-dog-image02.jpg  

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