New Guy with a Colt SAA !st Gen

[farmbif]

if you look in the western powders reloading data guide silhouette powder appears to be one powder that can be downloaded safely in 45 colt.
if I had such a fine example of a classic gun I would go right to the source and contact western powders and ask the experts there for what they might recommend.

[fcvan]

I know I'm the new kid on the block, but if the 45 Colt was not used in rifles until the 1980's due to the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge, then how do you explain the 45 Govt, or what we layman call the 45-70, getting brought out in Marlin and Winchester before the turn of the 19th century ?

The 45-70 and 50-90 were replaced by the 30-40 Krag Jorgensen while the 45 Cavalry remained in service through the Spanish American war. The 38 S&W was introduced in the late 1870s, and saw some use. However, it did not perform well in the Philippines and the harder hitting 45 Cavalry was reissued. A few short years later, the 45 ACP was under development to provide the greater energy of the heavier bullet to comply with the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which required non-expanding bullets.

Several useful cartridges were available for lever guns and the market steered more towards 'newer, better, badder' than the lever 45 colt. The 38-40 and 44-40 WCF already filled a niche, and the 444 Marlin and 45-70 provided more oomph. Surplus rifles in 45-70 were available after it was no longer an issued weapon, but the 45 Cavalry remained on inventory as it was a proven and reliable sidearm in less than pristine fighting environments.

The 30-06 03-A3 was replaced by the Lee Enfield P17 yet the 03-A3 was still pressed into service during WWII even after the introduction of the M1 Garand. Again, they worked and worked well. Even after the M14 was introduced the Navy issued re-fitted Garands chambered for 7.62 x 51 MM as there weren't enough M14 rifles to go around. The Military kept them in service even after they were 'replaced.'

The SASS 'craze' created a market for something not previously cataloged, the 45 lever gun. In the 1980s demand was enough that carbines were produced and sold well. It was part economics and part military designation which stalled to introduction of the 45 Colt lever guns and single shot carbines as the Military had ceased continued use many years prior.

[M-Tecs]

The 45-70 and 50-90 were replaced by the 30-40 Krag Jorgensen while the 45 Cavalry remained in service through the Spanish American war. The 38 S&W was introduced in the late 1870s, and saw some use. However, it did not perform well in the Philippines and the harder hitting 45 Cavalry was reissued. A few short years later, the 45 ACP was under development to provide the greater energy of the heavier bullet to comply with the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which required non-expanding bullets.

Several useful cartridges were available for lever guns and the market steered more towards 'newer, better, badder' than the lever 45 colt. The 38-40 and 44-40 WCF already filled a niche, and the 444 Marlin and 45-70 provided more oomph. Surplus rifles in 45-70 were available after it was no longer an issued weapon, but the 45 Cavalry remained on inventory as it was a proven and reliable sidearm in less than pristine fighting environments.

The 30-06 03-A3 was replaced by the Lee Enfield P17 yet the 03-A3 was still pressed into service during WWII even after the introduction of the M1 Garand. Again, they worked and worked well. Even after the M14 was introduced the Navy issued re-fitted Garands chambered for 7.62 x 51 MM as there weren't enough M14 rifles to go around. The Military kept them in service even after they were 'replaced.'

The SASS 'craze' created a market for something not previously cataloged, the 45 lever gun. In the 1980s demand was enough that carbines were produced and sold well. It was part economics and part military designation which stalled to introduction of the 45 Colt lever guns and single shot carbines as the Military had ceased continued use many years prior.

Hard to get that much misinformation in that little of space.

The original case design limited its usage in other firearms. It has NOTHING to do with the military designation. That is 100% BS. The military adoption ensures widespread civilian usage unless there are issues like the original 45 Colts minimal rim. Unless someone produce an actual patent on the 45 Colt cartridges the claim that it was proprietary is just more BS. More telling is Colt never chamber it in the Burgess lever gun or the Lightning pump gun.

On the history of the 45 Colt pretty good info here. https://dailycaller.com/2015/04/24/t...nic-cartridge/

The military used the 50/70 not the 50/90.

The Springfield 1903-A3 came after the P14's and the M17's. 1942 to be specific. Some more actual history here https://www.shootingtimes.com/editor...4_201003/99110

Lee Enfields are very different rifles from P14's and M17's and there is no such animal as a "Lee Enfield P17". Some actual history here
https://www.historynet.com/short-mag...d-long-arm.htm

The 444 Marlin is a modern cartridges introduced in 1964.

Some history on the 45 acp . https://www.sightm1911.com/lib/histo...ge_History.htm

The term 45 Cavalry historically was used for the lighter 45/70 load designated for the Cavalry Carbines. When applied to the 1873 Colt the term is Cavalry was a destination not a model and it is less correct than the term 45 Long Colt. At least with the 45 Long Colt term it's points out a difference other than who it was shipped too.

The Army and Cavalry used the same 7 1/2" Colt 1873 Single Action Army. The Artillery model used a 5 1/2 barrel and that term has meaning and is historically correct with an actual difference justifying the term.

[DougGuy]

45 Colt was not chambered for a lever rifle until the mid 1980s as the 45 Colt was technically a proprietary govt. cartridge.

The Army rejected 200 Colt SAA pistols in 1875 because they did not like the "pinched frame" rear sight. These became the very first civilian SAAs sold by Colt, and as such they are more often than not the most desirable of the collector SAA pistols. Must not have been too proprietary.

[YippyKiYay]

The 45-70 and 50-90 were replaced by the 30-40 Krag Jorgensen while the 45 Cavalry remained in service through the Spanish American war. The 38 S&W was introduced in the late 1870s, and saw some use. However, it did not perform well in the Philippines and the harder hitting 45 Cavalry was reissued. A few short years later, the 45 ACP was under development to provide the greater energy of the heavier bullet to comply with the Hague conventions of 1899 and 1907 which required non-expanding bullets.

Several useful cartridges were available for lever guns and the market steered more towards 'newer, better, badder' than the lever 45 colt. The 38-40 and 44-40 WCF already filled a niche, and the 444 Marlin and 45-70 provided more oomph. Surplus rifles in 45-70 were available after it was no longer an issued weapon, but the 45 Cavalry remained on inventory as it was a proven and reliable sidearm in less than pristine fighting environments.

The 30-06 03-A3 was replaced by the Lee Enfield P17 yet the 03-A3 was still pressed into service during WWII even after the introduction of the M1 Garand. Again, they worked and worked well. Even after the M14 was introduced the Navy issued re-fitted Garands chambered for 7.62 x 51 MM as there weren't enough M14 rifles to go around. The Military kept them in service even after they were 'replaced.'

The SASS 'craze' created a market for something not previously cataloged, the 45 lever gun. In the 1980s demand was enough that carbines were produced and sold well. It was part economics and part military designation which stalled to introduction of the 45 Colt lever guns and single shot carbines as the Military had ceased continued use many years prior.

DUUUDE....put down the pipe and get some sleep....My fact checker BROKE just reading that...Thanks for the mis-information.

[YippyKiYay]

BTW, the Lyman cast boolit manual list a 255 gr boolit with a starting load of 6.0grs of Unique, at a measly 590fps. So I may bump it up a touch from there. I dug out my 45 COLT dies tonight.
Gonna slug the bore tomorrow.

[bedbugbilly]

YippyKiYah - welcome! Sounds like you have a nice Colt SAA! Hope you get your question answered. So far, Larry Gibson, DougGuy and some others have provided some good info.

I kine of feel like we're on a field trip down the yellow brick road to find the tin man a heart and the lion and the scarecrow got in a scrape over who knows the way best - meanwhile Dorothy is still wondering if there will be a heart IF they ever get t where they are going.

Interesting how a simple post on some information about light loads for an original Colt SAA BP frame turned into national debate about the history and nomenclature of cartridges adopted by the US Army and their ability to kill a horse or not - and heaven forbid if anyone refers to a 45 Colt cartridge as a 45 Long Colt. Nice way to make a new member feel welcome.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

I once had a friend who delighted in asking the question, "What is the difference between a Colt .45 and a .45 Colt?" He maintained that the SSA used the Colt .45 and the 1911 used the .45 Colt. In the literature of the time when these pistols were first produced, the popular literature not the Army manuals, there is some basis for that bit of confusion. Personally, I think it much better to refer to them as the .45 Long Colt and .45 ACP to avoid that confusion. Some say, "But there never was a .45 Short Colt!" Perhaps the Schofield? I'll go with using the extra adjective for the sake of precision in description of what we're discussing.

DG

[M-Tecs]

???????????

https://www.leverguns.com/articles/t...short_colt.htm

The Long & Short of the .45 Colt
by Jim Taylor

The debate over whether there is a .45 "Long" Colt cartridge is an on-going one that has been active for probably 75 years. Elmer Keith alluded to the arguments many years ago when he wrote "...Some newcomers to the game claim there is no such animal, but if they had shot the short variety that Remington turned out in such profusion before, during and after World War I they would see there was some basis in referring to the .45 Colt as the .45 Long..." (Sixguns, page 285)

As far as I know there have never been any .45 Colt cartridges headstamped "Long" and though I have reports of old cartridge boxes marked "45 Long" I have never personally seen any. Mr. Keith referred to them from time to time as "long" Colt's (with a small "L"). If you have ever seen the short Colt .45's you can understand why.

The Winchester .45 Colt's that Paco and I have came from Shootist Keith Owlett who gave them to us a short time before he passed on. The cartridge box is deteriorated and I have it put away now - at least what's left of it. But it is plainly marked ".45 Colt Government". The headstamp on the cartridges is ".45 Colt" ...BUT these are SHORT .45 Colts! The headstamp is the same as the longer .45 Colts, even down to the "W" on the primers.

These are not S&W or Schofield cartridges. The rim diameter is the same as the long .45 Colts, which is smaller than the Schofield rim diameter. These are true .45 Short Colts. The cartridge is listed in Cartridges of the World on page 306 as ".45 Colt - .45 Colt Government".

[Agarbers]

Colt SAAs prior to 1902 were not proofed for smokeless powder. SAA experts I know feel using smokeless, which has a different pressure curve vs BP can stretch frames and cause wear. Other experts will say that Colt used inferior steel when compared to Smith & Wesson of the same era. This has been discussed many times on the Colt forums.
https://www.coltforum.com/threads/bl...5#post-3252633

[YippyKiYay]

Thanks to most of you who gave a reasonable, sensible answers...to the others....keep throwing poop at the fan and getting your post count up...I'm certain that's you intent.

[YippyKiYay]

YippyKiYah - welcome! Sounds like you have a nice Colt SAA! Hope you get your question answered. So far, Larry Gibson, DougGuy and some others have provided some good info.

I kine of feel like we're on a field trip down the yellow brick road to find the tin man a heart and the lion and the scarecrow got in a scrape over who knows the way best - meanwhile Dorothy is still wondering if there will be a heart IF they ever get t where they are going.

Interesting how a simple post on some information about light loads for an original Colt SAA BP frame turned into national debate about the history and nomenclature of cartridges adopted by the US Army and their ability to kill a horse or not - and heaven forbid if anyone refers to a 45 Colt cartridge as a 45 Long Colt. Nice way to make a new member feel welcome.

Bedbug, I see you are always seeking more light, going towards the East. As am I. SMIB

[LenH]

Thanks to most of you who gave a reasonable, sensible answers...to the others....keep throwing poop at the fan and getting your post count up...I'm certain that's you intent.

Now that was down right funny!

[Walks]

So much Truth & fiction.