New rimfire round

[murf205]

With the pressure limitations of rimfire, and the world wanting more and more performance from firearms:
I don't see them coming out with anything new that isn't something that's just a variation done with .22 cases.

Now, if someone made a run of .32 RF, I'd buy a box or two.
I'm a little surprised the .17 rim fires are as popular as they are,
but I don't think there is a large enough market for rim fires bigger than the .22 to make it profitable.

Pressure limitations are a factor for sure. The 5mm Remington had a 33k lb operating pressure and that needed a new bolt and action design with more substantial locking lugs to hold it. I am surprised at the popularity of the 17's as well. Those small projectiles are pretty explosive for small game but most guns chambered for them are accurate. Maybe there in lies the success.
I know that developing a new cartridge/gun combination is a big gamble for the manufacturers but it must be worth it. There is a new one ever week it seems like. Some die on the vine and some are a 6.5 CM. You could have won money from me if you were betting on a 6.5mm ANYTHING was going to be a success before it appeared.

[dverna]

murf,

You are right about the .17's. My buddy has one and on a calm day it shoots very well. And it is explosive on small critters. I was impressed enough to consider getting one, but decided loading the .223 with the 50 gr SX or Blitz bullets would not only be better but less expensive. The .17 was great for my buddy as he does not reload.

[uscra112]

@John Boy - To drop into a .25 Stevens RF chamber you have to swage the base down to about .277". I don't see where you're doing that.

[gpidaho]

I believe a high quality 25cal. or 30cal. air rifle would make more sense than a new caliber rim fire. Just my thoughts on this. gp

[murf205]

murf,

You are right about the .17's. My buddy has one and on a calm day it shoots very well. And it is explosive on small critters. I was impressed enough to consider getting one, but decided loading the .223 with the 50 gr SX or Blitz bullets would not only be better but less expensive. The .17 was great for my buddy as he does not reload.

That's good for him and I found the load of 9 grs of 4759 and a 50 gr Remington at 1580 fps has a zero, centered on the target, at 75 yds without moving the adjustments for my 200 yd zero with full throttle loads. With a FMJ or cast it would make a small game round but in my state if you can't use a center fire anything to hunt small game. With the prices being charged for RF ammo today, it is a blessing indeed to roll your own.

[uscra112]

That's good for him and I found the load of 9 grs of 4759 and a 50 gr Remington at 1580 fps has a zero, centered on the target, at 75 yds without moving the adjustments for my 200 yd zero with full throttle loads. With a FMJ or cast it would make a small game round but in my state if you can't use a center fire anything to hunt small game. With the prices being charged for RF ammo today, it is a blessing indeed to roll your own.

Exactly what I've done. Full load for coyotes, 1950 fps Red Dot load for woodchucks in the bean patch. No scope adjustments needed. Both loads shoot better than I can hold. Worked this up because at 50 yards, no .22LR is certain to make a humane kill on a raccoon or a woodchuck, but there's no justification for the almighty bang of a 3000 fps. load. Scares the neighbors, even though they're half a mile away.

Good point about air rifles. We may be reduced to them all too soon.

Could interim laws prohibit centerfire rounds but not rimfire, before firearms are prohibited altogether?

[Kosh75287]

Using a machine that made 9x19mm brass, the Finns adjusted it to the maximum case length of which it was capable, and eventually developed a round called the 7x33mm Sako. If I recall, it was used for small game and grouse(?).
This will violate the "rimfire only" constraint, but I wonder if machinery for the .25 auto could be adjusted to make a longer case (say, 23.4 mm or slightly longer). The semi-rimmed configuration might be problematical for single shots or lever guns, but perhaps ideal for a short auto-loader.
Chamber pressure for the .25 ACP is ~25,000 psi, which would seem low enough for single shots and blowback autos. Increasing the case length would up the case capacity enough to use heavy(er) charges of slow(er)-burning propellant obtain "REAL" ballistics, particularly from a rifle-length barrel. While the current market isn't exactly "spilling over" with after-market .25 ACP projectiles, neither is one doomed to the use of FMJs.

Just a thought.

[303Guy]

Personally I would rather see a CF rimmed cartridge of .25 cal.

I just happen to have one. But it's a jacketed bullet shooter, it's a 25-303. I want a cast boolit shooter. There is the 25 hornet and the 25-20 and 25-30 that could fit the bill.

Just a thought, what caliber would we get using the 22 mag case for a healed boolit cartridge? Cases exist, actions exist, barrels can be made to any size.

[Chill Wills]

Just a thought, what caliber would we get using the 22 mag case for a healed boolit cartridge? Cases exist, actions exist, barrels can be made to any size.

I think you would get a 22 caliber. The 22 mag is a healed bullet cartridge - I think. I have not pulled one apart in about 5 decades.

[uscra112]

No, the .22 Magnum has the bullet inside the case.

The dies used to form .17 WSM actually make a .25 Stevens, and then neck it down to .17 caliber.

Hmmm, wonder if I could talk one of the ammo bigs to snatch a few hundred off the line for me. I go to a LOT of trouble to reverse that necking operation! Would they be primed, or not?

The rims, as I think I have said, are too hard for the old boys' rifles, but my Stevens 83 bolt gun has no trouble.

That 83, btw, is a sweet gun. Most of them were .22s. It's about the size of a lot of modern .22 hunting bolters. You could rebarrel one of those to .25, modify the bolt face, maybe lengthen the bolt throw, and have yourself a nice .25 caliber shooter. If the bolt throw is a stumbling block, make it for the .25 Stevens Short. A popular round back in the day, although Stevens rather vociferously argued against using it in their rifles. The case would still have plenty of room for a powder charge behind a gas-checked 65 grain bullet that would yield 1800 fps. ***

Edit: More reason to go to .25 Short: The .17 WSM case can simply be cut off below the shoulder to get the right length, eliminating all the hassle I go through opening up the neck.

Should I set the barrel of my Model 44 back?

*** No. I'm wrong. The old Short is a full half-inch shorter than the Long. Powder space would barely yield 1200 fps according to Quickload. What we'd need is a "Medium", case OAL about .900", which is the .17 WSM cut off right at the shoulder. Now you could get enough 2400 in there to reach 1600 fps. (Quickload again.) That would still fit into any bolt action designed for the .22 Magnum, but probably not into actions made for the .22 LR.

[Traffer]

I just happen to have one. But it's a jacketed bullet shooter, it's a 25-303. I want a cast boolit shooter. There is the 25 hornet and the 25-20 and 25-30 that could fit the bill.

Just a thought, what caliber would we get using the 22 mag case for a healed boolit cartridge? Cases exist, actions exist, barrels can be made to any size.

It would be .242" A 22lr is .224" so you can probably add .004" to the .242" making the bullet diameter .246" I don't know of anything that uses that diameter of bullet. I could make the ammo but not the barrel. Barrel would be around .244" groves.

[uscra112]

6mm is .243".

[murf205]

While we are speculating/wishing, how about the 24 or 25 RF with a 70/75 gr RN in a lever action like maybe a Henry? I could even wish for a semi auto like the CZ 512M if the stars aligned properly and the pressures were kept to 22WMR levels. You don't have to load it like a missile if the boolit weight is complementary to the purpose.

[uscra112]

Anything that can handle the .22 Mag can handle my proposed .25 "Medium". Pressures would be about the same.

Personally I'm still leaning toward a subsonic .25, maybe with that 75 grain bullet, because it could be effectively suppressed, making it a good neighbor in built-up areas. To complement that feature, we'd need a really frangible bullet that wouldn't ricochet.

[Bmi48219]

I believe a high quality 25cal. or 30cal. air rifle would make more sense than a new caliber rim fire. Just my thoughts on this. gp

Now that would be a marketable idea. Plus it appeals to the Something New and Different crowd. When everyone has a PPC or two a fairly quite, non powder actuated weapon could be the new niche. Plus the Dems would stay up nights figuring how to fit it into their new regulations. Bravo.

[uscra112]

.25 cal air rifles exist, but they're expensive, and they need an expensive compressor to support them.

[gpidaho]

Bmi48219: High power PCP air guns can be had in all the common calibers up to at least 45 caliber and are used to hunt game the size of deer and hogs. Most are expensive. My PCP rifle isn't. Its an entry level Diana rifle. I'm into the rifle, a 4500PSI compressor, an ebay SCBA air tank with the high pressure hoses and a backup hand pump for just over $600. With a 3500 PSI fill I can get 30 good shots per fill. Gp (Sorry for the thread drift. Back to rimfires)

[303Guy]

While we're drifting and wishing, I had the idea of a center fire 'air rifle' so to speak. I have a 22lr barrel that is small enough to support the nose section of a 22 cal air rifle pellet. The idea was to shoot rabbits or any pests where a 22lr is not a good idea. I would have repurposed the hornet case. (Back to rimfires! ) Just a thought, maybe one could use a 22 rimfire to propel the air rifle pellet? I have a bolt gun with an equally tight bore. Anyway ...

[Winger Ed.]

Just a thought, maybe one could use a 22 rimfire to propel the air rifle pellet? .

Get & try out a box of CCI CBs. They're .22 shorts, gallery rounds, that make less noise than clapping your hands.

They hit harder than a .22 pellet gun, but at about a similar noise level coming out of a rifle.
I used to shoot them in the house, going down the hall into last year's telephone book.

[Burnt Fingers]

Winchester really had to jump through hoops to get the 17 WSM to actually work. It also takes a much harder hit than a 22 rimfire to set it off.

For years I've wanted a 25 caliber straight wall, semi-rimmed centerfire.

The length of the 22 mag would be a good starting point. I'd like to see a 55 gr TC bullet at around 1750 fps. The TC bullet would work in a tube fed lever action.

It would sip powder and be very inexpensive to shoot and reload.